Walking Clown Alley with Chuck

 This week I talk to one of my favorite regulars. Chuck enjoys a good beer and share his life from our island to the big top. Enjoy me chuckling with Chuck! 

Summary/Time Stamps: 

• Introduction to today’s episode. 0:09
• The first elementary school on the island and clown college. 2:03
• Was he auditioning for other things before deciding to go to clown college? 7:56
• How he got involved with the circus. 13:17
• The connection between clowns and mimes. 19:45
• What kind of clowns did you do in the circus? 25:15
• The wild life of clowns on the road. 31:20
• What was your favorite place to perform? 37:08
• Cockroaches, fleas, and cockroaches. 42:51
• We got pulled over by the cops in Oklahoma City. 48:41
• Was there a preconceived notion of the type of person he was? 50:59
• When you were doing the freelance clown stuff, were you the same clown that you had been in the circus? 55:39
• Dancing in front of an arena full of people. 1:01:03
• No one wanted a Christmas Time spoof. 1:06:53
• How did you get into dance? 1:12:27
• Hearst Castle and evening tours. 1:18:07
• Retiring from the outside world. 1:24:49
• Pat’s memories of growing up in Madison Square Garden. 1:31:41
• Did you ever go see the circus when it comes back? 1:36:45

Transcript

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Chuck: 0:09

The Giants game. They actually played an afternoon game on Monday, which

Siobhan: 0:14

is on Oh, that is on

Chuck: 0:17

Chicago.

Siobhan: 0:20

All right. Let's see here. Give me a little Hey, how are you? They're testing. Oh, perfect. All right. Testing. All right. Well, this week. Oh, sweet today

Chuck: 0:39

was versus other days, right?

Siobhan: 0:41

Yes. All right. Well, welcome today. This week on decking reality. I'm joined by my friend, Chuck. And Chuck you. I met you at one of the bars that I work at. And you have had a very interesting life. So will you? Well, first welcome.

Chuck: 0:57

Okay, my name is Chuck Berg. I'm live in Alameda, California. Nice enough to be asked to be on the podcast today.

Siobhan: 1:05

Yeah, well, we were talking and you used to be like, Why don't you tell us your kind of origin story. And we'll get into what makes me think you're so interesting.

Chuck: 1:16

Well, that, hopefully, hopefully this proves to be interesting. But I guess as far as I started out here and got all Alameda, California, USA. And then I went as far as interesting. I, I guess. I guess what they said at the beginning of the Alice in Wonderland, it's always best to begin at the beginning. Yes. So what I find interesting here is that I went to school right behind us here when I was at the class. Next right behind us. Okay. Just came to mind that I was like, in the in the sixth grade, I think I was the first elementary school class. Oh, wow. And then and in those days, where we are sitting in this location, it was it was still a lot of sand. It had the city hadn't been this the fill or as we called it, then hadn't been actually you know, built up like it is today. Oh, yeah. The

Siobhan: 2:33

island when you grew up, probably so much smaller, right? Yes, it was a Navy SEAL here then.

Chuck: 2:39

Oh, definitely. It was the Navy was still here. And actually where we were sitting where we are sitting now used to be water when I was was was a young kid and there was a yacht club right here there's a pier that ran out to the bay then they filled it in and I went to I went to the first elementary school out here on what we call the Phil South Shore. And today it was kind of reminiscent of those days only because the wind would blow very strong and it says it was just developed there was nothing but sand an elementary school and an apartment like this one and then a couple of next doors but as small kids or as relatively small kids elementary school the sand would just blow across the park the school play yard in waves just whipping you the dust storms kind of in the dust storm and we were literally have sandwiches because we had to go out and sit on benches and so that was that goes back to the beginning are pretty much the immediate. But as far as when I think you find interesting and things like that is the more of the my entertainment background.

Siobhan: 4:02

So you did you go to High School on the island?

Chuck: 4:04

I did. Okay,

Siobhan: 4:05

I went to Alameda High School. Nice. And so when you graduated high school is that when you were classes

Chuck: 4:11

68 Go Hornets Google Hornet. But what was the question?

Siobhan: 4:18

Did you go right into did you go to college after high school or did you go right into performing?

Chuck: 4:23

I went I went to college. I actually i i went to Cal State University Long Beach and out of high school, graduated from Long Beach State in business degree in radio and was then called radio and television. I had a theater minor. Oh, nice. And so I like to say I did my, my my my postgraduate work in my secondary education. It was clown college. I love a little A little less traditional than the original college that I went to but, you know, I got a specialized education.

Siobhan: 5:08

Yeah. What made you decide to go to clown college?

Chuck: 5:11

Well, you know, like I said, I guys, well, I thought the simple answer is I thought it would be. I thought it would be fun and go out make got to an arena and make people laugh and entertain every night. Hey, what's not the life was not the like about that.

Siobhan: 5:28

So where did you go to clown college?

Chuck: 5:30

I had to go to I had to go Venice, Florida. Oh, I'm, we call it is almost the newlywed in the nearly dead. And, and the circus. Yeah, they had a big an arena. So how's that? So I thought it would be a fun thing. But how I got there is is? You know, that's the interesting part of the story. Okay, well

Siobhan: 5:59

tell us how did you get there? Well, first, I

Chuck: 6:01

had first of all, I had the first of all, I had to fill out this extensive application for why don't you try this, you know, I was looking for some. So like I said to be redundant. It I it was relatively simple thought at the time, that it would be it would be fun and not what was not the like about entertaining people all the time. But so I filled out the application. I sent it off to Venice, Florida. And then I heard back. And the circus came to town in Oakland, as well. They accepted my application. And they obviously must have thought I had something it was quite quite five or six pages of detailed information. And then I auditioned in Oakland, at here in Oakland, California to Coliseum nice. And then they, as happens in the show business. They either like you know, say something polite and send you on your way. Or you get a call back. And in this day I got I got a call back to come back and it you know, another audition. And that one of besides a number of different things I don't remember exactly. But I do remember that they brought out a show girl and asked me to dance with the show girl, they put on some music. And I was dancing with the Oakland metropolitan ballet. I was taking class. And we weren't famous ballet stars, but we have taken class. And so when they asked me to put on some music and dance, that didn't strike me as particularly difficult and you know,

Siobhan: 7:42

so you were basically a classically trained dancer, and a radio performer.

Chuck: 7:48

Well, I don't know if I was so much a radio. A radio performer but I was taking class. Yeah. Okay. And getting

Siobhan: 7:58

were you auditioning for other things too, before you decided to go to clown College. Like were you thinking about getting into showbusiness?

Chuck: 8:04

Well, that yeah, that was it. I went in clown call it I had been are in costume at Long Beach. I'd been in plays and and I was thinking about working as a television cameraman kind of freelancing not doing a lot. But so yes, the answer was yes. But this came along. And so after a couple auditions that night, they they asked me well, if you know, if you were to if you were to receive a contract, could you leave town and be gone for an indeterminate amount of time? And to me, I had no idea what was going to happen. But I course I said, Yeah. I had no exactly what idea that was, but, you know, I didn't have the wife and 2.5 kids is basically I think what they were asking, Did you have a commitment that could you you can't leave and come to Florida? Well, so I was I find, you know, yeah. And I was in and then I got got a call and I'd been accepted and told me that I got an acceptance calling calm College. Can I be there? September or I forgotten? He was a September date. But well, can you be in Florida on September 9, and? Well, yes. Then, so that was kind of the start. I was the beginning of the journey. And my, one of the things I had to do is tell my, you know, my family or my friends and my mother. I told my mother first because my dad had another idea about maybe what I should be doing Postgres He would like get a real job and

Siobhan: 10:02

what kind of job did he think you should be doing?

Chuck: 10:04

I thought, well, he, you know, I had a great father, but he thought maybe I should something more traditional, like maybe go to work for a banker. My dad worked for General Motors was most of the guys in that gender. You work for the same company. All right? For a long time, and while maybe you should go to college and, you know, graduate and make a living and well, I told my mom, I was going to clown college. I was moving to Florida. She goes, let me tell your dad.

Siobhan: 10:35

Yeah, she wanted to be that buffer for you.

Chuck: 10:40

Yeah. So, fortunately for me, but I had the date to start clown college. And I had a sister that had lived in northern Florida, but I stopped there. But I took a Greyhound bus because I didn't, you know, I didn't have a whole lot of I didn't have a whole lot of money, right? So was clown college expensive. Now once you got in, but it was kind of like getting into the Juilliard School of Music. You know, they took the year I went. Not today. But they they get like 1000s of applications and they take 50 people. Oh, wow. So like getting into Harvard or

Siobhan: 11:22

it's really competitive.

Chuck: 11:24

MIT, something like that. So that's kind of I went, got on the bus stopped at my sister's house. And then they went to the Ringling compound. I remember I remember getting there and it was night I took a bus down. I ended up have got a hat thing. I was sleeping bag and in my, my pack and stuff. And I slept on the ground. Outside in the compound, there's ring and then call in and you know, walked into the door.

Siobhan: 12:04

Right? So your clown college was at the Ringling Brothers complex? Yes. That's amazing. Yeah, like so you learn from the people that created the circus?

Chuck: 12:15

Yes. Yes. And it got started by Herb Welch. Or, you know, the old clowns, the traditional clowns were dying off. And Ervin and Kenneth fell decided that they wanted to have a way of trying to promote maybe the American, the circus, which is a little different than Europeans, but they had three wings. And so that that's what I got invited to do. And I and like the rest of the most of us, we weren't exactly sure what we were getting into. Which is interesting, because, I mean, I had a certain set of skills, but nothing is specific. Right? It's not like I had been doing a whole lot of circus performing beforehand, which was what some of the acts were. Right. But as far as cloud calls goes, and specifically, I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen. It turns out, as it turns out, that when I got there was the one of the instructors, there was the choreographer for the circus. And I recognized her, you know, and then I got assigned a dance partner. Okay, so part of that part of my part of my being there was they were putting together a show, and they were looking for people to fill particular spots.

Siobhan: 14:02

And because you could pull off that dance move in the audition, they knew you could move that body.

Chuck: 14:07

That's kind of that was one of the things that made me realize, well, why why am I not any better than some other people but we came to realize, in Klang valley that there was 25 at that point, there were maybe going to be a number of different people there for for different a number of different reasons, right? Yeah. And because I was tall and slender and skinny, and they were putting together the you know, 200 what they call 200 years of circus in America. Okay. It was 1976 and they were putting together a bicentennial show. And there I ended up giving going through. Yeah,

Siobhan: 15:01

how long did it take you? Like how long were you in your clown college before your first real performance?

Chuck: 15:07

Well, it was kind of like going to a i to say it was like, maybe a sports training camp, baseball or football because we were there for nine weeks. And we learned everything from just the basics of, of climbing, putting the climb together, moving, we, we had makeup classes, we had a sewing class, I learned to sew, not very good, but sewing enough to make your own costume withheld. And then he would go in and there would be a variety classes and then you would go to the seamstress class in the shop, and that you'd be sitting there with the sewing machine and, and that would be part of it. And then we did, we took juggling and makeup and after lunch, we would have circus history. Maybe somebody would talk one of the teachers would talk about something that pertained to the circus.

Siobhan: 16:13

That must have been so like, just amazingly interesting. Because you're learning like a culture and a history of

Chuck: 16:21

Yes. And you what you learn is Gosh What I learned was, I mean a variety of things you learned about the history. And I didn't realize as I grown on going on and matured. Ken Burns, who does documentaries on he did one on the circus. Oh, really, he's done one a couple of those. And I realized that the what I was learning was part of circus Americana, it was part of the Americans you know, genre of an art form of a particularly entertainment of a time in America when there was not 21st century devices and everything we get from our hand and our, our tablet and our iPad and our but traveling circuses went around in and toured people. So that's what I, I, I ended up getting, yeah, knowledge not only just developing my own skills as a profit taking and performer, but I, I got to learn

Siobhan: 17:40

and and firsthand from the people that kind of created that history.

Chuck: 17:44

Exactly. And, and here again, I had gone with the idea that maybe, you know, I was gonna, I like to dance and do a few things. But I thought maybe I could get out my best Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly, or, you know, Don lo Connor. But they are all part of entertainment. And sometimes when you look at it, a dancer like that you realize that there's certain skills that can you can kind of cross references. But what I did what I learned to appreciate that I was learning from some of these guys that had been clowns professionally, in the old school, and some of these. I was learning from great teachers and individuals that as in the clowning history that I didn't know, really had much existence to me.

Siobhan: 18:45

Oh, wow. Have you watched that? So you've watched those documentaries now? Watch

Chuck: 18:50

them. And you look at? Well, we'll get back to clown College in a minute. But since you brought it up the history, and you look at the in the early silent films, and you look at, you know, you know, Harold Lloyd and Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin, that's all type of clowning. Right. If you go back and we don't look at those, but you know, that's a type of clowning.

Siobhan: 19:18

Yeah, I didn't realize that. Joe Rogan has a he calls himself like, he'll often refer to himself as like a clown. And one of his last tours was like the sacred clown or something. And he's like, that's what comedians are. We're just a type A clown. And he's like, there's so many different types of clowns. And they're, they've been so important throughout history and moving the culture or explaining things or like poking fun at things and I was like, it didn't realize that clowns had such a rich history in our culture.

Chuck: 19:45

Exactly. And you go back to Shakespeare, even, you know, the aliens shake the place the thing wearing I'll find the conscience of the king from Hamlet when and the kings would have court jesters and That's a type of clowning around those and, and that that that is, in fact, a type of clowning, and the king. Sometimes the jester could make fun, or tell a story to the king acting out when the other people couldn't come, right, because you couldn't do that. And, and you go back to the Greek or the French. I mean, there were all different types of clowns. And, and in fact, how we came into mind was because clowns were portraying the king in England and place, unfavorably, they were making fun of the king and the Kingston thinking in some way, didn't want to be the be seen as a buffoon. So they told the, you know, if you if you say anything wrong or disparage me, I'm going to cut off where if you say anything, I'm going to cut off your head. So that so that then they became silence. So then we went into mime and the Commedia dell'Arte in Italy, and the people understood the characters that the plant the clowns were portraying, either in white face or in black face or so there's that whole that the whole history of how how clowning and traveling circuses evolved. And one of the reasons why they did that was to was a because they, they traveled from time to time entertaining, but they had to stay ahead of the law. So if you made fun of, if you made fun of the guys in charge, maybe they weren't, they're going to come down, and they're going to shut down your show. So you're always ready to take off. You had to be mobile, you know, and that people understood the you know, even if they were mime in the clouds didn't actually say anything, but they understood there was a character. So that going full circle, is one of the things I learned to appreciate in clown College.

Siobhan: 22:16

Right? Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, so yeah, I didn't I don't think I've ever put that in. I don't know if I've ever thought that much about like the connection of clowns and mimes and performers.

Chuck: 22:28

Yeah. Which is? Why you? Yeah, yes. And that's something evolved for me. Like you see a movie like it, are they? They, clowns are scary and bad things will happen. To me, that doesn't resonate with me it does

Siobhan: 22:45

that make you angry? Well, sometimes

Chuck: 22:47

it does. Not, you know, but it makes me realize that that, you know, it's not the true representation of people, seeing what a clown really does,

Siobhan: 22:57

right? Because clowns are about joy and happiness.

Chuck: 23:02

And not only that, but they also they can tell people sad things, too, is it's not just oh, just not about all about joy and happy sometimes you're, like I said earlier a few moments ago, you're portraying a story to the people and sometimes it's a sad story. Right. And, and, but it's they're storytellers too, as well. So it's not just about fun. And that's a good idea, of course, but sometimes there's a little path offs involved.

Siobhan: 23:46

Well, truth sometimes is easier with laughter. Oh, yes. Yeah. So so when you were in clown College, and you're learning all these things, like your makeup and your costuming and like, do they help you create one character? Like, do you have one kind of main clown character? And then you do other things? And when you're performing, or are you always the same clown?

Chuck: 24:13

It's evolved. There's more than one style a clown? I mean, you have an answer your question. At that point. We were given freelance pretty much we were to develop our own character, but at the same time, there's some basic styles you had the ghost, which is the flesh colored a type of clown and that personifies something then you have something a white face or, or what's called a Joey, the white, the white face, which is where I work came in, or you have the character clowns, is it can be anyone over probably Emmett Kelly The Tramp is, is Probably something that might resonate with people. Okay, the tram clown that's

Siobhan: 25:07

I am not familiar with that one. I have to look it up.

Chuck: 25:09

You'll have to look it up. So,

Siobhan: 25:13

so you were a white face clown.

Chuck: 25:15

Yeah. And I just kind of developed that and going with my height and the being of that I was tall and skinny. And, and yeah,

Siobhan: 25:25

what kind of clown acts did you do? Like were you a big juggler or

Chuck: 25:30

I had I wasn't too big. I did some juggling. But my job for what I did was we did in any it's evolved in the Ringling show and the circus has evolved over a period of time. But when we were doing that you did that, like you were in maybe a variety of different numbers we change constantly costumed constantly during the show. One of my jobs specifically was well, I did the goats back to the dancing. I was in one of the numbers, which was kind of like a I did the boogie woogie bugle boy of Company B. oh nine. And I had an uncle Sam outfit on and a top hat and we were on on a stage and and so in part of the arena that's that was what I did. Maybe some people had other assignments but but that and so I had a full Uncle Sam outfit on. And I danced with a lady my she had a swirling red, white and blue kinda think. You know, I mean, Yankee Doodle then. Yeah, no more on the fourth. So anyway, I did that in in the spotlight. than another job I had. It was we'll go back to that in a minute remote. But uh, I'm just trying to think another another performance we did was, I was because of my height. I worked with the smallest man in the world. Mishu and there was a birthday. And we just because it was celebrating the birthday of America, I would I miss you the smallest men and I would be one of the guys that would be part of the I would be part of the wedding. And we would go in with Liliana, who is also a small little Hungarian woman and we would go up on a birthday cake. And so that were here we were in red, white and blue. So that was another act that I was in. I so that was part of it. We I was tall and they were really small and he could he me if you and I we can get under stories of how tall was he? Do you remember the five inches that really? He could walk between three he can actually walk between my legs?

Siobhan: 28:12

I was gonna say his so he's shorter than your legs are alone. Yes.

Chuck: 28:17

We made an interesting amusing couple. It basically comes about up to my waist. Wow. Yeah.

Siobhan: 28:23

How long did you tour with Ringling Brothers

Chuck: 28:26

a couple years just finishing up just put a period yeah a couple of years and then I did we did the clown acts. We did obviously the Statue of Liberty and another act I you know I would that was in the clown car then we Yeah. Do you fit all those clowns in the clown is a secret I'd have to kill you if I told you.

Siobhan: 28:52

Is there lots of clowns secrets

Chuck: 28:57

as far as as far as yeah, there's a lot a lot of story. Thank you to everybody. But when we when I was one of my another XO, one of my eight jobs on the show, I didn't just do one act upon making just kind of giving you an overview so that we had American patriots getting staying on theme. We had American patriot was the theme. So you could have one of the clowns would come out of the closet. She would be Betsy Ross. Okay, somebody have a long living meal. We had Davy Crockett, we had George Washington and we had Abraham Lincoln, of these clouds popped out of the ibis, the Statue of Liberty. And what I would do is the clown College had come out into the collet the car would come out the arena and I would be standing next to the where the drive up. And I had a scepter you know, look like and I had to wear a bodice, which means I had to have a figure. Yep. So I had to be backstage. They would put me on a pedestal, and they would put my, you know, my garment I had this rustic looking grayish kind of rusty looking garment that would cover me. Like the Statue of Liberty, they would give me my crown in a scepter. Okay. And then I would go out and I would be in the arena when the clown car came by, and I would hit them. I would hit them with my scepter when Betsy Ross or a GI came out with his helmet on. Well, one day I was we were doing the show, and they decided they were getting tired of getting mauled by the so maybe we were in Pittsburgh, I think but so they decided that they were going to take down the Statue of Liberty, which, so they pulled me down on the ground in the arena. And they started pummeling me with with their, with their different with our blunder bonds or other, you know, props, their props. They were pummeling me. Wait a minute, listen to me. I'm a lady. The Statue of Liberty, you get me doing that to me? Well, as the story just as continued that wasn't part of the show. People in the audience didn't know that this was off script, right? Well, so here I'm getting mauled by my constituent clowns. And afterwards, we go back in the alley and Charlie Bauman, who's the performance director, who is also a big German. Okay. And he was talked like this. Okay, you closed What was that guy playing the blanket, he goes off and you didn't mess with Charlie because he was also the lion tamer. Oh, he was he was, you know, he was going into a cage with like, eight lions regularly.

Siobhan: 32:00

That must have been wild to be traveling with all of these different people and Sideshow acts and animals and just caravanning to every different city in town.

Chuck: 32:12

Pretty Yeah. You know, we were in like, what? Maybe 35 cities in what? How many weeks? Are there in here? 3050 to two weeks

Siobhan: 32:23

in a year. Yeah.

Chuck: 32:24

And we were we were we

Siobhan: 32:26

were would you guys drive or take the train?

Chuck: 32:29

Well, we oh, that sometimes we drove but we we lived on a train. And I had a I had a I had a room alone room at which was kind of hard for me because I'm six foot two and the rooms where you fall down a bed and you have a sink the folds out and you have cut little cupboard spaces. So you didn't have your personal wardrobe was an extensive because you didn't have a lot of space. We could keep our stuff at in clown alley. We had trunks in clown alley. But so we lived on the train. And we we lived you know, on the wrong side. Well, you live on the railroad tracks. So it wasn't, you know, you lived in that part of town.

Siobhan: 33:15

Right? So you guys just kind of performed wherever you pulled up the train kind of closest to the train tracks,

Chuck: 33:21

or we had a bus that would take us to it right? But it was an old funky like continental a beat up old continental Trailways bus. We're not like we were not like pro athletes. No, yeah, we're not like Proace We don't fight. We don't get flying and fancy car in chats and stay at the Fairmont Hotel. You know, and people aren't rushing up to us asking us to sign their autographs and giving us memorabilia and we were we were itinerant clowns.

Siobhan: 33:57

And so what was like the wild is asked that you like was there any times where I have so many questions? Like what was the wild is act that you were ever a part of?

Chuck: 34:09

Oh, things just happened. I we well, we also did we also I don't know if wild but different like I said different weird things. It goes back to being mauled by my fellow clowns. But I was I was going up on this cake that would go up in layers, you know, holding onto these two little people, you know, and, and they'd be playing on this mission. Or sometimes what happens was the while when things didn't go, right, like we had this number called what was then called the char vari, and where the clowns run out. We have a small stance, small trampoline, and you Trump through a hoop. Okay, there They had a big paper covering on it, and said Ringling Brothers, sir. And so you would jump through the hoop go over this gymnastic horse, okay. And do a roll and come out on the other side. Well, my job one of my jobs was the whole the whole part of the time while he was been running out, and one of the frayed hooks for they would that they would be changing, changing sets. But while we were running out and doing the char bar using the cloud for this type of activity, well, I got hit in the head of the my head with with this big frayed hook. Oh, wow. So suddenly, I'm I'm seeing literally seeing stars in the greatest show on earth. I'm literally seeing stars and I'm trying to hold the soup and I'm and meanwhile, have white face in the blood is dripping down my face. And the guys are looking at me gone, man and I was wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So that was an interesting story. We were in Norfolk, Virginia, and they took me down that we went, got a cab or something, we went down to the emergency room. And Friday night, in the emergency room in the ER, and all these people are moaning and groaning. And I get this big towel on my face. And because I got this nice crease on my forehead, side of my head, so that some people then you have seen two clowns walk into the ER. Sounds like sounds like the opening for a jail like a joke, you know, does that air and so we're in we're in the ER in, in the in Norfolk, Virginia, and I sat at Friday night, you know, and and the doctor was mocking, you know, oxygen and East kind of doubletake. You know, I think he got a couple of clowns in the unexamined room three. And he walks in. Yeah. Well, clowns. And what is bleeding? Pretty good. Right at the moment.

Siobhan: 37:11

Did you have to get stitches?

Chuck: 37:13

I think they just put like, maybe a couple stitches, but a big bandage. I didn't perform for a couple of days. But so things like that.

Siobhan: 37:24

What was your favorite place to perform? Well,

Chuck: 37:30

it kind of depended. You know, Denver was nice, because it was in a scenic you know, Madison Square Garden is New York, as you very well know. Is is is New York. But then sometimes you wanted to be out of the city because you live in New York. And here again, as a circus performance. We are trained to stand by the East River. So you know, yeah, that's we're hoping not to get mugged sometimes going going to and from tech God for to and from my room. I was hoping I didn't get mugged tonight. If I if we didn't catch the bus, you know. But so there are different places, you know, and you could go to it was so freaking hot in a Phoenix when we got there. You know that our milk? Our makeup was melting. So that wasn't always it depends on the building to us. The amenities were, you know? Yeah. So it's hard to pinpoint and say one.

Siobhan: 38:36

Right. And then did when did you go to Europe with Ringling Brothers?

Chuck: 38:40

Oh, they know they did for the head for a short period. They had a circus that went to they tried when in Japan. Oh, okay. It's called the gold unit. But that didn't exist very long. You

Siobhan: 38:53

know, do you think the circus is just a very American thing?

Chuck: 39:00

No circuses. And here it goes back to the bait. What I learned, it goes back to the beginning of time, you know, there were circuses in Italy. And in in Greek times and and then in the European circuses started out being one ring and different acts, people would come in and do one. So it's not just an American thing, but there is kind of an American model, okay. And that was PT Barnum at the beginning of, you know, in the early 20th century, and said, you know, if, if one ring is entertaining Trillian why not make three rings. And now we'll have a three ring extravaganza. That's a very American type of

Siobhan: 39:56

you got to make it bigger, bigger and bigger.

Chuck: 39:58

kind of you know, well have, you know if one ring was good? Why not have, you know, for lions and tigers and bears?

Siobhan: 40:07

Did you get to interact with the animals while you were touring with them? Or did you stay far away from them?

Chuck: 40:12

Well, some of the cons actually rode on the elephants during in the show that I didn't my job. You know, I said I had other I hate. So we were actually told to stay away from them because we were told that those lions are trained they're not tame. So you didn't want to go over to the lion cage and start petting the the you know, that agreed reach out for you and snag you or there is speaking of interaction, I've just kind of flashing back on some, but we were in Madison Square Garden in Europe, seven floors. And, and the before the before the elephants went on. They would be lined up backstage, and the passageway that goes in front of the elephants would be relatively small. And, and then we had a dressing room on wheels. That was next to where these elephants were being staged. Well, one day they got in a fight. Some elephants were swinging in each other. And they and they hit this trunk that's on wheels, and it came rolling towards me. And here are these two elephants swinging their, their trunks back and forth. Wow. And I had a choice. You know, there was a wall behind me. And these two trunks these two elephants kind of in front of me. And they were smashing everything. And I had to I scooted between them. I just had my tights on or something. My t shirt. And I was lucky because they they demolished where I had been. Oh, wow. You know in this small aisleway So speaking of interacting with animals, a we were told to stay away from me if you know if you're not their handler or working with himself, right? Weird things could happen.

Siobhan: 42:14

Was it just elephants and lions? Or did you guys have a lot of animals that you traveled with? I?

Chuck: 42:20

We had polar bears? Oh shit. We had Ursula Beecher and her and her and these are full polar bears. So we had their polar bears. They were dancing ponies. They were you know, the animal x there was the elephants that could have killed me. I wouldn't have been here having this conversation today. If I had not made the moves that I made when I Yeah, the dog. There was a dog act.

Siobhan: 42:54

Did you guys ever have the little flea

Chuck: 42:55

acts? No. No, but there were plenty of there.

Siobhan: 43:01

Plenty of fleas. Just none of them in the circus.

Chuck: 43:04

There were cockroaches on the train. Oh, sure. Yes. Cockroaches didn't hurt you. But every once in a while they would cop they would fumigate the train. And we thought that brought cars brought out all the cockroaches out. Then they would die. And you'd go back to your room and there would be cockroach a cognate with the cockroach on Yeah. Yeah, no fleas, but then cockroaches. Yeah.

Siobhan: 43:32

Did you guys have a lot of Sideshow acts in your Well, you were traveling with them too, or no,

Chuck: 43:36

we didn't. When I was there, it was. There weren't that you know, they had concessionaires but not not sideshows like Right. Like we knew in the in the 20s and 30s.

Siobhan: 43:52

So would you like when you have off time? Do you just like hanging out with all the other performers?

Chuck: 44:00

Kind of Yeah, we we weren't pretty we will either that or we were moving? Okay. You know, we we didn't have like it's not like we went out and sat by the pool on our day off. Cuz we didn't have a pool. And be you know, we were maybe get some if we were someplace we could stop. If we had our own car we were we would be traveling. We might be on the train going to the next location. Or if you had a friend who had a car or a van maybe you could hitch a ride with them and stop someplace but maybe take a quick look at the Grand Canyon or something and go back into on your way to Phoenix or something. So that's it

Siobhan: 44:47

sounds like a really hard lifestyle where you're just constantly working and traveling and working and traveling and

Chuck: 44:53

most of the most the kind of Yeah, that was kind of most of the what we did. Yeah, we may If we were in st a longer stay like in Madison Square Garden, maybe we had some time off, you can go on your day off, go to the, you know, go to the city, but you usually had something to do. I mean, yeah, maybe get your laundry done or just sleep. Just like other people on their days off, you know, sometimes usually they got, you know, they work a five day workweek. They have a day off, they have to do the laundry, or they have to, maybe I'll just maybe I'll just sleep, you know,

Siobhan: 45:33

right. Just relax one day.

Chuck: 45:35

And, you know, in our backyard was the railroad yards. So we'd get maybe have a barbecue, get some cheap beer. And, you know,

Siobhan: 45:45

for like, Would you like you? You said Misha was the smallest man in the world, would you to like just be walking into some store? That's what I'm trying to picture I guess is like, on your off times is is that those are the stories that you refer to earlier?

Chuck: 45:58

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes that would happen, or? Yeah, me she would be my buddy. But I also function well, just to point out that, that my job was with him was also as kind of as a guardian. And not not. Not officially but but unofficially, because on the circus, a lot of moving parts. And we would do my job was to pick him up, make sure that he got he got back to the dressing room. Yeah. And occasionally we would go out and have a have a habit. And he likes to have a few drinks, and I'm gonna have a few drinks. So maybe we'd go find a place, you know, if we can find a place to do that, you know. And I and I had a couple of duar friends. So things like that, maybe like that. But they were generally kind of a mobile, kind of a mobile type of thing one time. Yeah. And one time he and he would be the star. And when we were in New York, I remember we went to the studio and because he was going to be on what I guess was the equivalent of the Good Morning America today are something one of those talk shows. My job is to be his is an escort, okay? And we got taken up, bought lunch and taken care of, and then we would so many should be sitting there and I'd be sitting next to him, you know, we hear the diet. And people would bring us something and help them put them up on the right. So

Siobhan: 47:37

it's like having a little kid that's a full grown human. And we're

Chuck: 47:40

drinking buddies, right. And of course, people look at you, you know, I mean, is that like we were exactly on the cover. So we would do that, you know, that might be a day off or

Siobhan: 48:00

yeah, when he's when you're three feet taller than he is.

Chuck: 48:04

Yeah. And sometimes it worked for him like on the train. His his train car. Not only was he a star, but his his train he fit great in his room. Plenty of room. He comes to my room and I'm I'm like, I'm like I'm like in a tuna can. You got plenty of room you know, is so and so we would do different things or once. One time we read the stories, not actually a linear interview. Well, that's okay. But one time we were traveling Overland. We were in stopped off and going through Oklahoma. We played Oklahoma City and then we got pulled over by the cops for something you know, well, we had gone to the cafe and well I'm not sure of this. But we had gone to this cafe in Muskogee, Oklahoma. You know, and actually, there was a song about Muskogee we don't wear our hair long and Shaggy. Like those folks in San Francisco do I'm just an Okie from Muskogee. Never heard you've never well this is well it's true. And so we go in to this cafe talking about having down traveling and I'm with my friend one a dwarf and another clown and and myself and they wouldn't stop they they wouldn't serve us you know, we got the feeling because I had long hair at that point. And we were kind of I'm just saying we were looking on we looking very strange. We weren't we didn't have a pickup truck with that gun rack and cowboy hat and boots. We so we're driving a we leave the place after we realize we're not going to get getting served right. After we're not going to be where we get pulled over by the highway. Something we didn't win didn't think was right. And I'm driving and that they're checking us out, get out somewhere standing there. And we looked like mutton Jeff, we got to a really tall skinny guy. And then another weird looking kind of clown looking guy. And the guy wants my ID you know, we're getting Shakedown. I'm again, I give in it looks at my comp my driver's license, because California high net puts it pushes it back in my check, and don't say anything. Okay? I said, No, that's right. Yeah, yes, yes. We're just going through and when he finds out, we're with the circus. That's like okay, we're just, we're just leaving. Okay. Go on any trouble, okay. Now that mean, we're gonna get get go to jail or something? So that's the bad days off?

Siobhan: 50:59

Yeah. Did you? Was there like a preconceived notion of the type of person you were when you were with the Circus Circus, like did people treat you differently? Because you're a circus person?

Chuck: 51:10

Yes. Well, yeah. So it would be it, you know, besides curiosity, some people had and still do, like I said, my Oklahoma story that people from circuses and carnies? Were not, you know, you had in the lock up your daughters, because these are kind of the spiritual kind of, kind of guy. So you know, and so it went, it went both ways. Yeah. I mean,

Siobhan: 51:42

was that kind of the feeling on the road, though? Or was that not as degenerative as people would think it was?

Chuck: 51:53

You know, we weren't, we weren't degenerates. We sub we were sometimes we would call it prestige poverty, because, like, in Chicago, at the end of the year, the the political machine would have, we would have a performance for the constituents, Mayor Daley, or the people that were running. So they the aldermen could bring their constituents to the circus. Okay, and, and so then we afterwards we were taken back to the state mansion there or something and they had a big lavish spread about of all this food and high end whiskey. We're just cart we're scarf and all this stuff. Because because we're being treated very well, but then we were gonna go back to the stockyard ends in Chicago, if you've ever been to the stockyards, you know, of a hustad Avenue as it's the pits, you know, it's the old it's the old cattle yard. So we were getting treated really nicely in one spot. But then we knew where we were going. And people were nice. Sometimes this guy had this place called clown alley, I forget where we were, but it was a bar and kind of restaurant, he opened it up for us, he was hoping it'd be nice as we go in and schmooze with the customers, which we did. But we did, but we were also there because we can eat and drink. We didn't get paid much. So I mean, it was kind of like, yeah, we got treated well, but we're gonna have this many beers. Ooh, prime rib. Oh, boy, you know, I mashed potatoes and gravy. And so yes, there's kind of a double standard there.

Siobhan: 53:57

So you were you traveled around the whole us then with them for a few years? Yeah. And then what did you do after you finish with them?

Chuck: 54:07

Well, I did, I did. Parties and, and, and promotional events. I worked for an agency I did birthday parties, corporate events, that, you know, kind of those types of things. I had gotten a come to mind. I went to the unemployment agency when I'm in that one. It was in downtown Oakland. And and there's the unemployment office. There was a lot of interesting people there anytime you went to the kind of down by where Laney College is now but so she asked me what I do, you know, and I told her I was a clown. I just you know, that's what I'd been doing well. She has all this big binder of jobs, you know? Well, yeah. Well, there's no there are no job a classification for clowns, but she ought, but then she hired me to do her kid's birthday party. Oh, nice. And that person, you know, another mother needed another person. So I went to the unemployment office, but I didn't get directly hired, you know, where I was kind of freelancing. Oh, nice.

Unknown: 55:31

Yeah.

Siobhan: 55:36

So you freelanced for a few years?

Chuck: 55:39

Yeah, yeah. And then I worked in a hardware store because I had to make some also some supplement my income and

Siobhan: 55:48

when you were doing the freelance clown stuff, are you the same clown that you had been in the circus? Are you did you like evolve and adapt that clown to be more of a like, single?

Chuck: 55:57

Yeah, it was kind of it was kind of adaptation. One time it would depend on you know, what they needed? Right? It's kind of it was kind of kind of what they needed. One story that comes back to me though, is these ladies were having a up up in Piedmont seaview drives, they were having they wanted to have these ladies wanted to hire a clown. And they were dressing up in these are, well to do women up and pee mom, and they dressed up and like cheerleader outfits, and they had costumes on and then hired me to be the clown. Well, I had to figure out what I was going to do to hire this. How am I going to entertain? How am I going to entertain these? Right? These women? So I, I, one of my ideas was I had them. You know, we had this, I somehow got this naked figure of a guy. Okay? Like put it was pin the tail on the donkey? Only with adult themes. So, and the lady's got to pin the tail on this.

Siobhan: 57:15

They got to pin the deck on the guy

Chuck: 57:18

like that, you know? Yeah. And so you had another one where they, I had it I had a bottle, and they had to kneel on on this chair and reach over and drop the clothes pin into the, into into the, into the into the jug. And if you got it, if you got it in the jug, you got to take a drink, you know, they had white wine, you got to take wine. So you know, instead he had a kids party where he handled little trinkets little prices, you know, we played to you know, pin the tail on the underbody or drop the clothes, pin it in the in the wine jar and, and do that, you know, and so it kind of depends on on. I kind of have a you know, yeah,

Siobhan: 58:09

that's really fun, like adult drinking games. Adult

Chuck: 58:13

prefer these pretty young women and, and they were kind of amorous with me after a few drinks. And I'm going well.

Siobhan: 58:22

That's where I thought that story might be going there in costumes and hiring you

Chuck: 58:29

is a force that, you know, your husband may be coming home and a little bit you know, I mean, ladies, you know, I mean?

Siobhan: 58:38

Maybe that was part of their king.

Chuck: 58:40

Maybe it's today maybe I would go back and revisit that. But I was gonna wait a minute, you know, you just hired me out. That's not what I do.

Siobhan: 58:53

I'm a professional.

Chuck: 58:57

He was true. You know, and I think back about a go maybe I should have gotten a little bit more money than happy you know? Yeah. I was working on Market Street in San Francisco. And I was doing a store promotion. While this guy came up to me with a knife and he wanted he was holding me thought it would be fun to put the knife to the clown's head, you know. And so I was trying to you know, here's a busy street on a market street there and I forgot what the opening was maybe of a Walgreens, it could have been something but I'm just trying to hope that they don't get my some Looney Tunes yet. Yeah, so Oh, all those things happens. You know you're out there and on any on any given day. So this guy

Siobhan: 59:57

just kind of came up behind you and put it nice

Chuck: 59:59

yeah. He thought it was haha this is funny, you know, put a knife to the guy the clowns throw everybody laughing This funny let's see what he's gonna do and

Siobhan: 1:00:09

oh god, that's terrible.

Chuck: 1:00:13

So those those kinds of things you said so I had to kind of adapt my my my act to what, you know what was the client going to pay me for today and

Siobhan: 1:00:26

how long did you do freelance stuff for

Chuck: 1:00:30

off and on for a number of several years but I had to supplement my income I worked in a hardware store and you know did a

Siobhan: 1:00:41

bunch of odd jobs to

Chuck: 1:00:42

yeah kinda odd jobs Yeah, I was a chauffeur clown things that began with CS I was a clerk and I sounds like a Frank Sinatra. I've been over and out and up and down. I've been a pauper, a Piper, a pauper? A PA.

Siobhan: 1:01:03

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my guess.

Chuck: 1:01:05

Yeah. So obviously the chauffeur of his star cleric is you know,

Siobhan: 1:01:10

you are an NBA dancer.

Chuck: 1:01:13

Oh, that Yeah. Oh, that that, that that came to all these things evolves, you know, because I got a there was an audition for the Golden State Warriors back in 2007. I believe I saw there was an ad in the paper. And it said if if, you know, if you're not afraid to perform in front of, you know, we're we're looking for we're looking for male dancers if you're not afraid to perform in front of an arena full of people come by Tuesday at 2pm and done. And I said, Well, hey, I can do this. You know?

Siobhan: 1:01:50

You're like arenas. I've done that. Arena, the

Chuck: 1:01:53

the you know, and, you know, dance in front of people make a fool of myself in front of people. What's the worst can happen?

Siobhan: 1:02:01

Yeah. Have you? Did you ever have stage fright? Well, yeah,

Chuck: 1:02:05

I mean, half that half of that. Yeah, my knees would be shaking a little bit but special when we did the weekend warriors, because we would audition the number and rehearse it. And then we then we would go during a timeout at a timeout at the wire game. They had the end you had the antithesis of of the warrior girls or the Raider rats or whatever you want to whatever sports ended do they call their? Their female performers. And they were they were good. They were the good looking stuff. Right? We were kind of middleweight.

Siobhan: 1:02:42

Oh, yeah. So the call for dancers in 2000. He said 2002

Chuck: 1:02:45

su two that I think was 2007. I did that often? For three years. So I mean, how old were you at that point? Oh, I was the oldest Dancing Men in the NBA. Oh, yeah. I was. I was guys, I might have been 60 at that point. But it was like, when you went out of justice, but you would be sitting back there. And you would be in the chute waiting to go out on the floor and your knees would be come sometime. I always had a little nervousness because you don't know what's going to happen. You know, once you get out once I got out there and was doing it. Maybe I was. But yeah, so that's me. It didn't ever have stage fright. Kind of regularly of some you know what's gonna happen, you know?

Siobhan: 1:03:28

Yeah, but never fear of performing. Always a drive to perform.

Chuck: 1:03:35

I suppose that would be a desire to want to do that. You know? So dry. Yeah, go out and entertaining. I was scared sometimes. Yeah. Was it a lot of work? Yeah, it didn't. You know, so I was in a movie. I did some bits, you know, big pieces, you know,

Siobhan: 1:03:58

what kind of movie were you in? Or what movie were you in? Well,

Chuck: 1:04:03

if I was on a couple of TV shows, I mean, not Trump my own heart but I did a movie called Alabama's ghost. There was teen we were hippies. We filmed it in villains beach where we were being chased by elephants and people had we were supposed to be at our like a rock concert. And things got out of hand and some crazy guy started chasing us up the sand dunes and then it was a big movie. We did show it but awesome. Yeah, it was a big movie. You know and then on Market Street next between the 2x rated movie theaters you know, hey, but you showed what we showed you know I mean, I I was a hidden Fresno you know? In the we show the I you know, we showed him you know, in Fresno. I there, and a couple of TV shows and things like that.

Siobhan: 1:05:05

That's amazing. But when you so when you went to the when you saw the NBA tryout for the dancer thing, when there was no age on it, it just said if you Yeah,

Chuck: 1:05:16

there was there was no age and and I had some experience little dancing and some other guys we weren't. These guys weren't exactly your typical dancers. They were kind of heavyweight. We're all kind of. I was I was the skinny guy. Oh, but, but so yeah, so when we went out there and they played the music and it was a novelty item to be sure. And they said, Well, we're going to do is we're going to you can do the first night. Okay. And after that, we'll see how it goes. And if it works out, then you get then we'll go from there. Right. And so the first couple of the first people laughed, it was gratifying, you know, because we went out there and a timeout you know, we did our number one of them we did was MC Hammer, I'm so sexy for your love. And we had overalls. Oh, no, that one was the one we were dressed in CI Q and they they rolled out this red carpet. And when we walked out and I had a little I had an open collared shirt on before it was fashionable and I had my sports coat draped over my shoulder and I had a bit NACA elope and I can spray and you know we were we were GQ kind of guy. So that happens and for we did that for three seasons, different times. Different themes.

Siobhan: 1:06:55

Oh, that's so much fun.

Chuck: 1:06:57

No one wanted a Christmas time we did a Christmas time we did. Like a nutcracker spoof. No one wants it. No one wanted to no one wanted to be the ballerina. So guess who did?

Siobhan: 1:07:17

Didn't you?

Chuck: 1:07:19

I was Yeah, I had been a chicken in the circus. I've done a variety of different things. Yeah. So hey, give me a two two. I'll put it on.

Siobhan: 1:07:30

Was it a pink tutu?

Chuck: 1:07:31

It was with lace on it. Very nice. And got a little makeup on. I was pretty. I was pretty sexy ballerina?

Siobhan: 1:07:40

I'm sure you weren't, we might have to get a question that.

Chuck: 1:07:43

Well, speaking of that, it turns out to be a UPI wire service photo in different places, and my friend in New York City, called me up and said, you know, the word on the sport in the sport or somebody has seen this UPI wire service photo, and it called me up to say they had they had seen me, you know, black and white and one of the guys was lifting me up. I'm doing like a grand digitais or something. So, you never knew where you were gonna, you know?

Siobhan: 1:08:20

You never know where you're gonna find you. Yeah, well,

Chuck: 1:08:24

that was true. Speaking of that, you know, and there was a woman that did summer Saunders she did a an attractive blonde woman who did the top 10 plays of the week. Okay on like ESPN. Oh, yeah. Boards center. Well, one time they said the top 10 plays of the week you didn't want to see Oh, yes. The not so top 10 the opposite not the not so top 10 And we were on year number eight Golden State words versus the Utah Jazz and and then we might 15 seconds of fame again. You know

Siobhan: 1:09:11

my ex husband is actually on the nut so top 10. So now you're the second person I've met that's on that. They started a hit a bunch of his friends. It started a thing called the Santa speeder run in Boston, where they in December went and ran around the streets of Boston in speedos to raise money for charity. And the second or third year they did it ESPN came out and did a film of it. And they're all these heavy fat drunk guys running around in speedos now screaming into the camera. And they're like, Yeah, this is not what you want for your charity.

Chuck: 1:09:45

Yeah, so you know, you never know when things would show up. You know, when it just got to the point when you show up for an audition. I guess the point I'm making is he asked me about auditioning and yeah, I just showed up and you It took off.

Siobhan: 1:10:03

Have you always been kind of? Like, why not give it a chance kind of guy?

Chuck: 1:10:11

I guess, problem. I only because you kind of I wouldn't say some of that's true. I mean, but I was able to make fun of myself. You know, going back to high school, some of the guys were the guys who were a jocks or some late some even female personas, you know, maybe they have to be, you know, that's not me. I'm a I'm, you know, I'm a model, you know, right? Yeah, I'm, I'm a big jock. I can't be doing anything stupid, like, getting a pie thrown in their face. I don't want to put myself out on the limb, because I've cultivated my look in the mic. So yeah, when it came well,

Siobhan: 1:10:55

yeah, that stuff was never you. Hmm. Well,

Chuck: 1:11:00

I, I. Yeah, it wasn't me because I didn't have the physique and the persona. And you know, if I, so it was easy, I guess what I'm saying it's easier for me to go out on a limb and be silly than somebody that's kind of very defined. You know, look,

Siobhan: 1:11:17

right. Yeah. Was it ever? Like, were you ever nervous? I mean, you said you did get stage fright occasionally. But are you ever nervous putting yourself out there or like being the butt of the joke? Or because there's some people that their ego just can't take being the butt of a joke? Where you seem to enjoy being the butt of the joke, in some ways? Well,

Chuck: 1:11:35

that's true. Yeah. I mean, you can, I mean, like, I, you know, I like watching the march brothers, you know, and people like that, you know, and Jerry Lewis and, and that kind of performance, it goes back to the history and different different styles of performing. Jackie Gleason, you know, one of these days, you know, one of these days, or, you know, so I wasn't, I guess it was easy for me to make fun of myself or be put myself in that position, you know?

Siobhan: 1:12:18

Yeah. Because what do you think made it easy for you, though, do Do you know, have you ever thought about that?

Chuck: 1:12:27

It? That's a good question. I probably thought about it. But I, I don't know if I had a a stated goal. I mean, from elementary school and going on a high school, I was in plays, I was in the theater department at LMU in high school. And that was because like, that was because I wasn't going to be a football player. You know, and I was, I guess I gravitated towards that because I liked entertainment. And the theater when I went to guys went out to x after school sports, they will play basketball, they played football, they play baseball. I wasn't talented enough to do that. But I did do well, you know, I could go up to school get in plays, and

Siobhan: 1:13:17

you could do the art thing and not the sports thing.

Chuck: 1:13:20

That's right. So that it kind of kind of evolved, right. So I felt that this is something I want, like I said in the beginning, that it was fun. Why not go and attain people?

Siobhan: 1:13:32

Yeah. What do you do now? Do you? Are you completely retired now? Or do you still do just

Chuck: 1:13:37

one more? One more thing? Yeah. And keep that question. But how I got into dance, too, was because I was recruited. I mean, the girls from the bath. I mean, they had you know, I like to dance, but they had the girls there. Were not very many boys went to dance class.

Siobhan: 1:13:57

Oh, yeah.

Chuck: 1:13:58

And so you know that the teacher and so we need to find a few good men. Okay. And then I got invited into the ballet and I liked it. And plus, there

Siobhan: 1:14:09

were pretty girls. I was just gonna say, I'm sure the girls didn't hurt you.

Chuck: 1:14:13

So I got to put my hands on pretty girls. And, you know, the other guy. The jocks had their muscles that they were, that's what we're for them, you know, so yeah. So it just kind of, I guess what I'm trying to tell we can go. But that's kind of how it evolved. You know?

Siobhan: 1:14:28

Right. Yeah. You follow the ladies?

Chuck: 1:14:32

Hey, and I like it. Yeah. And then they Yeah, they invited me they wanted me right. You know? It didn't mean like after the football game. I ended up in the back of the convertible because that's where the jocks win

Siobhan: 1:14:49

Yeah, you walking them home though. Some nights I'm sure. Oh, well,

Chuck: 1:14:53

you know things happen occasionally. You know the all odds were in your favor. That's another thing. You know, I mean, I couldn't make the football lineup but if I was in the dance class, and they were pretty girls, and you know the my opportunities provided.

Siobhan: 1:15:11

It's smart. It's very smart. Go on, I cut you off. Oh, I was just going to ask. So you you've done. It's been a few years since you did the NBA dance thing. Yes. And so I know that you volunteer at one of the state parties at a station?

Chuck: 1:15:27

Yeah. No, it's the national national park. And how I got into the park business yesterday. Well, I I got a summer job working in the park just as a kiosk attendant. And and then I decided I'd tried to get a full time job as a park ranger or a gate attendant and work in the parks. And because I needed a one of my temporary job I needed I needed a job and then so I ended up going to working for the East Bay Regional Park District. I started out working as a summer job. And then I moved my way up through the system finally became a park ranger too. And later in my life, it's worked out.

Siobhan: 1:16:14

Yeah, cuz you still do that job. Correct. I retired, but

Chuck: 1:16:18

I retired and I volunteer over at the Hyde street Pier in San Francisco at the Visitor Center. And I get to meet people who can work for me personally. And as part of my history. My family grew up on the waterfront San Francisco.

Siobhan: 1:16:34

Yeah, cuz you. I mean, your family's been here in the Bay for

Chuck: 1:16:38

generations. Yeah, my great grandfather was a Danish console. So I ended up going to work for the park district, and I realized that I could get benefits. You know, I mean, when you're working freelancing as a clown, there's not a whole lot of or a dancing even though I got paid to be with the NBA wars. You know, we got

Siobhan: 1:16:59

you aren't getting a warrior's kind of salary.

Chuck: 1:17:01

I didn't i i got like minimum wage. We got some costumes. We got a few tickets. But you know, we got but yeah, so with that, I want to enter your questions. And I worked through the park district. Because they had benefits and I got paid regularly. And I

Siobhan: 1:17:22

you know, yeah, that's a nice change.

Chuck: 1:17:25

And then I work at the High Street parents, San Francisco, Toki welcomed people from all over, literally all over. And you meet people and you get to help them recreate and my family. It's kind of like where my family grew up on the pier. So and then I also do so that that led to a full time job and then I now I just retired i i do some volunteer work and I meet people and help get them around San Francisco and before the pandemic for nine years we did. Hearst Castle on the Central Coast. I don't know if your listeners are familiar with Hearst Castle, but anyway, California State Historic Monument Hearst Castle and they have different tours. And then in the evening, they have the evening tour, which is we recreate the 1930s as if you were a guest of Marion Davies and William Randolph Hearst. And people don't if they don't know but they famous people he used to have famous people down there, you know, could be the Marx Brothers it could be Charles Lindbergh, EMEA Amelia Earhart at any you know, Carole Lombard Clark Gable. Anyway, these people would come down for a weekend party or longer down at Hearst Castle. And when we get to do is we work for me I get to dress up in period costume. And I get I get to so fun. Yeah, and I get to be my alter ego. Raul Montgomery. I'm a ROM. I'm a producer. Oh, I cosmopolitan films,

Siobhan: 1:19:26

very cosmopolitan films. Does that translate to adult films?

Chuck: 1:19:34

No, actually not. But there is still a Cosmopolitan magazine today. Oh, yes. And run by the Hearst Corporation. And, and he had one of his arms. One of his media arms was cosmopolitans films. But anyway, so I would, I would do that and I got to be. I got to be my own and we would as you went around touring and They would point things out in the different rooms, we would be we would be the, the fo guests. Oh, we were walking around talking and the ladies are in beautiful, you know, period costumes. And, and they still have, you know, and they can have for real furs on and not be, you know, face to political stigma. And so it's a beautiful property and we got to wear an ascot and tie and pants and a nice shirt, you know, and a bowler hat, you know, and B, I got to be the 1930s. You know, that's really fun. Yeah, we got to go in. They have an auditorium where William Randolph Hearst has some theater seating. And, and we get they, they have a movie that's on the screen and the guests come from, or the people on the tours come behind, but we get to sit in the seats. You know, I could have been sitting there, you know, with, you know, WC Fields sat there, you know, trawlers Chaplin came to the so I connected I can think, you know, maybe Charlie Chaplin sat in this seat. Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:21:20

Oh, wow. That's amazing. Especially for someone like you that's so connected to all of those people in that history.

Chuck: 1:21:26

So yeah, so that's another thing that does in relationship to what I did is in my retirement,

Siobhan: 1:21:33

but they haven't done that since the pandemic.

Chuck: 1:21:36

You can you can go back. You can go back as I understand and do the

Siobhan: 1:21:42

day tour. Okay, but the night tours, they haven't restarted I haven't

Chuck: 1:21:45

restarted part A and part of that problem has been logistics of course they had the pandemic and that you couldn't get people on the bus. But you have to take a bus up to the top of the hill. And the roadway and roadway washed out so are collapsed. So they had to state has to make sure nobody Sue's them and asked to be so you can still go on the tour. You just can't go on. We don't do the evening tour right now.

Siobhan: 1:22:14

I've never been down there. So this is something I definitely have to plan for

Chuck: 1:22:19

it. Yeah. And something as a plan for and as people might may or may not know right now Big Sur is washed out. So the Highway One is, it's hard to get to because of all the rain that we've had all the rain we've had in the highway, it's been washed out to makes it more difficult to get to it.

Siobhan: 1:22:39

Okay, good to know. Yeah, yeah, that's I have a whole list of things to see not only like, versus cash, but things even around here, because I still haven't done a lot of sightseeing. Because when I moved here, everything was closed and then I've gotten such into a bad habit of not leaving the island.

Chuck: 1:22:57

Well, that can happen you know, but So that's those kinds of things. Yeah,

Siobhan: 1:23:10

yeah. So is there anything that you've been doing lately to do performing? Do you miss it at all?

Chuck: 1:23:15

I was over I was working yesterday in the city. While some of it I pray some of it you miss. I mean, I mean, but time moves on. I'm not I'm not as agile as I

Siobhan: 1:23:32

yeah, you're not jumping through any hoops now. I'm not jumping

Chuck: 1:23:35

through any hoops and and doing some of that stuff. I used to dance better, you know. Time moves on so you move some you know, and I don't think I the circus life you know, I mean, am I age I'm finding that I'm not as well I'm not as willing to be as spent my whole life living out of the trunk and moving around. That must have been really hard. So and then a few other things. Yeah. And dancing for the wires. I'm not the not the quite the athletic. So you know the some of those things. Yeah, you miss but some of them go on, though. Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:24:14

Have you developed like new hobbies that take the place of that stuff? Or are you just kind of relaxing into the sunset? Yeah, well, not really the sunset, but I guess just relaxing into the retirement?

Chuck: 1:24:28

Yeah, I pretty much I wouldn't have to say I mean it kind of people retire and they say oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And I found that I found things to do or not do because they were you know, because I worked as a park ranger. I was outside for 2020 plus years. And coming out of a we called the Dark Side of the Moon winter and especially This winter if you had an outside job it Yeah, I don't miss not having to wake up at 430 in the morning and getting ready to go out to the parkway, you know, is another long wet cold so as far as being retired now I can go okay, I think I'll just sit here and have a cup of tea and read the paper the wind is blowing and the rain is blowing so though I get I don't have to get up in the morning and go to work so yeah, and I get to do podcasts on my the live vlogs Yeah, posters here.

Siobhan: 1:25:37

I know he gets to come hang out at the bar with all the other guys.

Chuck: 1:25:40

I get to sit in pensioners corner. Yeah,

Siobhan: 1:25:43

our pensioners corner is very impressive. You guys have had a great life and your great like little group to hang out with during the days and like to hear about your adventures y'all go on now that different guys are going on different hikes sometimes or just when you guys are all talking about old stories. It's just so much fun and enjoyable. And it's like a nice connection to kind of the world. That was

Chuck: 1:26:09

Yeah, and it's it's also like, was here one of the main things we were talking about the entertainment. I mean, when I started, I didn't it didn't have a fight. People said well, when does it stop? You know, when did you? Well, it's kind of been a finite, it's not a been it has not been a finite period of time. It kind of this has expanded over the years i i When I when I like I said when I started with Ringling going to clown College, and learning these meeting these guys are different part of my history part of my history followed carried me forward to even to just today so and like I said, when I started working showed up one day with the California Golden State Warriors showed up at that audition, it turned out to be kind of followed me along so when I when it comes to retirement, it's just kind of retired and I wasn't exactly sure what was gonna happen, but I found other things to do.

Siobhan: 1:27:21

Yeah, have you like so? Were you ever a big planner? Because it doesn't sound like you were ever a big planner. It kind of sounds like you're you're gonna follow your gut and follow your interests you and makes you happy. I think

Chuck: 1:27:37

that's probably how I got started. Yes. I just thought well, that sounds like fun to me, you know. So I didn't think about well, if I do this, you know, I'm not calculating. If I go to get an engineering degree, I'm going to go work at a Silicon Valley tech firm or, or I'm going to become a dentist or I'm going to become a doctor, too. So from that you're right. I thought well, that sounded like fun. I mean, I liked dancing in the ballet if I could have done that in a full time that those type of things are things I kind of followed my muse. Yeah, except what I do have to say that I'm glad that I later went to join the participate because a public servants ation. Why not? Now that I'm retired, I get a pension.

Siobhan: 1:28:36

Right? You're glad you found that stability. Eventually,

Chuck: 1:28:39

it allows me to go to pensioners corner and drink beer with my buddies. Because I planned well enough 20 years something to go well, if I put money away now, if they have a pension for one, if they have a pension program, if I have if I need, you know, if I need health care, you know, at least there's so you

Siobhan: 1:28:59

plan for what was important, but the rest of it you kind of let fall into place.

Chuck: 1:29:03

It's correct. When I was younger, yes. And as I matured, I realized, well, I need to you know, I can't keep performing for women at parties, you know, even if they weren't me, you know?

Siobhan: 1:29:15

Well, you could have just maybe only fences around back then.

Chuck: 1:29:21

So yeah, so I plan later on and I'm glad that I made some things because it allows me to get my get a pension and health care and so when I can't do some of the other things now that right? Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:29:36

Well, that's really so what was Do you have any advice for someone that's looking to maybe become a performer or do kind of live the performers life like you have

Chuck: 1:29:48

you know, it's, it's I was in high school. I've been gone to high school classes. Okay, back to Alameda high school some years ago and, and they would ask me You'd come in and talk to the students or something. And that's happened a couple of times from having been an Alameda high school graduate, and maybe the art class, or maybe the English class, so Well, well, what can I do to get to be there? You know? Well, it's not like, ABC, right? It's not that you do this, you do that, and bingo, you. I, but I do say it's kind of a combination of is, well, it's not ABC. But if you work at something, if you have a modicum of talent, everybody in this room has a certain amount of talent. Every one of you can be a clown, or a dance or entertainer, I need somebody to program my cell phone, right? I need somebody to fix my car, you know, I need we need Dennis. But so I said, you can do several things to set ABC a year you work at it, B you develop a talent and see maybe a kind of luck. And you've you've put yourself into that position. So when you get invited to the dance, whatever that is, you can show up. And so that those things, you know, hard work, and that certain amount of develop your talent and be

Siobhan: 1:31:25

make sure you're putting yourself in those places. Yeah, well,

Chuck: 1:31:27

yeah, make sure other than luck comes along and a combination of a few things you show up and, and, and there you go. So yeah, I like that. I think it's great advice. That's what I would. That's what I told them, you know. So yeah, I like that advice. When one thing that just flashes in my mind, but we're talking about Pat being here in Alameda, and then going on to being something when I was here growing up here anatomy. They used to have the Friday night fights the Gillette Friday night fights for Madison Square Garden. Okay. The fell form and to me when I was younger, New York Madison Square Garden. That was the big time. All right, yeah, I'm living on an island in Alameda and my dad would watch the Gillette Friday night fights and and and the guy was a little bow tie would get out there and the big speaker would come down and and between rings they had the the attractive girl that would come around with the holding round number four. Well, one of the one of the acts that I did in the circus was we practice this in clunk cloth. I was we did a clown boxing event in the ring. And I was the I was the referee. Okay. And they would blow off they ended up the boxers ran up slapping me but but, but when we got to Madison Square Garden, because we I was an announcer and there was something a big ploy or some event back when it's still happening. And it was a benefit and big role High Rollers would come in. Well, we got invited to go in and do our clown gig in the ring. Oh, wow. And, and I got to walk down into the, you know, into the ring. And I'm thinking, you know, Coach like Mahama at least Sonny Liston. You know, Floyd Peda the world heavyweight until I'm standing there. I'm standing in the cloud, but that big speaker comes down. And

Siobhan: 1:33:47

that's like a full circle moment.

Chuck: 1:33:49

Yeah. And I go, and what part I've got ladies and gentlemen. And, and, and they and before, you know, and so that was kind of like, yeah, you asked about moments that happened. So I got to do that, you know, and crawling the ring with you.

Siobhan: 1:34:10

Yeah. Was that the moment that you realized, like you had made it in?

Chuck: 1:34:15

I just, it just goes to show. I don't know if I felt to me personally. Yeah, but you it goes back to talking about class, what I'm trying to tie in. When I go through the class in Alameda High School, and these kids are asking me, well, what can I do? How do I get to be there? And I go, Well, you do those kind of those principles and then maybe someday you're going to be standing in Madison Square Garden with this big speaker coming down and yeah, following your you know, and your dream and then they gave us money because the artificial money okay? Because in those days you you you stuck money in the girls tops and stuff and you know and you get you know, that part of the fundraiser when we were given this fake money and my and my partner will the other the boxers. He did this he did this blind thing. And he was he was trying to stick money in the girls top but he was putting his hands on her top, pretending like he was blind and people thought that was very funny. I wish I had thought of these fake bothers the sticker. There's a bomb. That was a cute idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those were different times. Those were different that yes, those were different times. But you know, yeah. Sometimes there's a clown. He got away with things too.

Siobhan: 1:35:50

Oh, I'm sure. You know. I mean, that might be where some people think clowns get creepy.

Chuck: 1:35:59

Well, actually, I never tried to be too creepy. I always tried to be spiteful clown.

Siobhan: 1:36:03

Well, you are a professional. Yeah, we've heard we

Chuck: 1:36:07

were. Yeah. So you know, if you've ever know where your face was going to show up on something, you know?

Siobhan: 1:36:16

Yeah, that must have been something to be and especially because that's like pre internet days. So there's no way to like track where your picture might end up?

Chuck: 1:36:24

Yeah, there's probably Yeah, it's a little harder. Yeah. Things have changed considerably. And so hopefully, yeah, they get paid better. You get to track them. There's a plus or minus thing.

Siobhan: 1:36:45

Do you ever go see the circus when it comes back around?

Chuck: 1:36:49

He did. I went to and then although it does the Ringling Brothers and is no longer they ended a couple years ago, two or three years ago, right? To 70. Anyway, after 146 years, they went out a bit. But we all we all got we all got invited back to a reunion. Oh, wow. By the circus, to Baraboo. Wisconsin.

Siobhan: 1:37:18

Did you go to it? Was it

Chuck: 1:37:22

what we did was what we why this is gonna make sense in a minute is because we went back there. A number of us a bunch of us, and we bearable Wisconsin is like the home of the Ringling Brothers. Okay. And if it's like a circus town, like some people, if you go to Canton, Ohio, that's the Football Hall of Fame. If you go to upstate New York, you know, that's the you know, that's the

Siobhan: 1:37:53

Basketball Hall of Fame. Yeah. Kobe Cooperstown. Yeah, and Cooper's

Chuck: 1:37:57

that their whole their whole shtick is, is has been baseball. So we went down there and why this can make sense. I'm being redundant here. But so we had a circus Calliope and a parade down Main Street. It's a small Midwestern town about parallel in the middle of Wisconsin with same latitude as Green Bay, Wisconsin, only in the middle of the state. And that's where the the Ringling Brothers started their original circus. But so we had a parade down Main Street. Oh, fun. And you know, it's on. It's on YouTube. And

Siobhan: 1:38:33

were you in full clown making? Yeah,

Chuck: 1:38:35

we were in clown makeup. And we yeah, we did the whole, you know, the remaining show girls, and they had the CLI of B and they have some elephants and music and they have It's a town like, if you what's the movie? Back to the Future? Where Yeah, yeah, it's a small town and they have is a town hall with a clock on it and stuff. And that's kind of the it's a small mid mess community. Yeah. So I, I got to go back and relive that. And

Siobhan: 1:39:12

because there's not many people that can say they were part of the ring, Lee's family. Right. I mean, it. I mean, I'm sure there's a good amount of people, but it's not like an astronomical amount of people that can be

Chuck: 1:39:23

and then enter and they're fading away. And like I said, I didn't appreciate it as much until like I saw being at the beginning of our conversation with Ken Burns, and doing one of his documentaries on a part of the American circus and, and I realized that's your, you're part of that. A little bit of that Americana. Is something that that no longer is this that you are, that you're a part of that history, you're a part of that history, I mean circus to say certain to certain subtle ways. temporary, right? I mean, not not, but it's a different type of circus. Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:40:05

I mean, that's, yeah. The way those people move is unbelievable to me.

Chuck: 1:40:11

We went, Yeah, we were we were in Orlando, Florida. We have one of one of our recent we had a reunion there. Orlando, which is where, you know, the circus. Also, you know, winter quarters were. And some years, couple years, three years, we had a clown college reunion. And we got invited to one of the circus, Olay performances, but they're in a fixed arena now, right in Orlando. And we got to go backstage and see some of those guys. And they invited were very gracious invited us back. So you got to see the next generation of of the circus.

Siobhan: 1:40:49

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of sad that that's like a piece of history that's gone away. That it's not really a thing that happens anymore. Yeah, some small circuses. But I think but nothing like Ringling Brothers. But

Chuck: 1:41:04

yeah, or big and even with Cirque du Soleil is going to come here in March. But, but but they're in a big arena. It's a it's a, you know, it's their great performance, but it's a different type of it's a very different type of show. It's yeah, it's a different type of show. And, and even for them, you know, finances are an issue.

Siobhan: 1:41:28

Yeah. Which is incredible to me, because why people wouldn't want to go to those shows. They're amazing. And what they do is amazing.

Chuck: 1:41:35

Yeah. So, but we have, there's so many more different forms of entertainment now that people get involved in Yeah,

Siobhan: 1:41:44

yeah. I mean, people don't sit for as long. It's for the same entertainment because everything is now so fast, and reels and 10 second clips, and YouTube and all of that. Yeah. So but All right. Well, I think we'll leave it there for today. But thank you so much, Chuck, for cheers for sharing us what it was like to be in the circus.

Chuck: 1:42:07

Oh, well, thank you for having me and finding an interest in my own part, my own small part of the universe. Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan: 1:42:15

Thank you for entertaining all those people for all those years. pleasure was mine. All right. Thank you all for joining us and make sure you find some of your own joy today.