From Rock Bottom to Recovery With Oliver

 Siobhan and Oliver share their powerful journeys through addiction, reflecting on the profound toll it took on their lives. Oliver, once a PhD candidate at UC Berkeley, became trapped in the cycle of addiction. His descent led to theft and a six-month jail sentence—a rock-bottom moment that ultimately became his turning point toward sobriety. Siobhan, meanwhile, was overmedicated with fentanyl, which clouded her memory and strained her relationships. Both describe addiction as a silent, insidious force that slowly erodes life from within. They stress the critical importance of support systems, with Oliver crediting his loved ones—especially Hannah, whose unwavering support played a pivotal role in his recovery. Together, they offer a raw, honest look at the path to healing and the strength it takes to rebuild a life. 

Transcript

Siobhan: 0:09

Right, let's do this. All right. So hey y'all this week and ducking. Realitea, I have my friend Ollie. What's up? Ollie, Hello, how you doing? I'm good. How are you

Oliver: 0:21

I'm pretty good, good.

Siobhan: 0:22

I'm a little nervous if I'm not, if I'm honest, yeah? Why are you nervous? Um, because we haven't talked about any of this stuff yet, yeah? And that makes me a little nervous. I'm so excited and honored that you're here and that you're willing to kind of share your experience with us, yeah? And to kind of have a conversation that's hard to have,

Oliver: 0:39

yeah, I'm very happy too. Yeah, I'm very happy to have that with you too. Yeah, can I actually start off with saying it was saying something? Yeah, absolutely, please. So I know that. Well, okay, I mean, I guess you were probably going to say this about an intro, but you know, I had, like, a lot of years of addiction, and when you and I met, it was when I was I honestly, like, my memory of things is not really very good during that time, unfortunately, but like, I know I was going into, like, my lowest point right, which, of course, is what got me sober. But, yeah, I don't know. I know that when you and I met, it was like during that time. I know that I was really not like, who I really am. It wasn't like a real, like, good representation of me, and I don't like, I really have very foggy, like, sort of, like, just in pieces, kind of like memory of that of most of that time. Yeah, I get that, but which kind of freaks me out. There's like, a lot of black holes in my memory, like in the timeline and stuff which I like, I I just know logically that I like. I can kind of figure when things happen in what order, but I don't actually remember it that way, if that makes sense. And but anyway, I know that I wasn't like a good person to myself, nor to like you, or to my partner Hannah, right? Or to like my family or any or my friends and everything so, but yeah, I just want to apologize for that, like right off the bat. Oh so

Siobhan: 2:14

thank you. And also, I mean I really understand probably more than you realize, because I have similar stuff. When I was, I was an addict too. I mean, I was over medicated, and I was kind of leaning on it. And I have things that I know happen, because I have pictures of me being there, but I really don't have a reflection of it that was, like, with painkillers. Like, yeah, I was on fentanyl for three years, Oh, yeah. And I was on a bunch of stuff, like, with fentanyl, right? So, like, there are times that I was at things, yeah, and then I was still drinking on top of it, yeah? Like, yeah. That's intense, yeah. And so there are things that I like, I one of my friend, oldest friends, I went to her baby shower, and I know I was there because there's pictures, and I have, like, the keepsakes I have no recollection of being there, yeah, it's freaky. And it's like, I've gone to a couple of people in my life and been like, Hey, can you help me figure out my timeline of that like, phase? Because I'm like, I can't there's like, it's like, you just said there's black holes in that that I'm, like, unsure of, and it makes me super uncomfortable, yeah, and it's hard. It's hard for them when I ask those questions, because they I don't think they knew how bad it was either, right? You know, because when, sometimes when you're in it, you don't know that you're in it,

Oliver: 3:19

yeah, especially when it's like a friend or like a loved one in some kind of way, it's like, like, even if you're not the, you know, I feel like, I feel like my loved ones, like my my friends, you know, even when they knew it's like, they didn't always want to believe how bad maybe it actually was, and I don't know, and I see that kind of thing in other groups, like other friends in there, yeah, when that happens, you know, but, of course, but for sure, like, when you're the one going through it, it's like, I mean, I don't know, I had like, a whole, a whole bunch of like, weird, like, beliefs and everything. And I thought I was, like, really just the shit and, like, on top of everything at one point. And then then it was weird, because then at other times, I, like, knew that I was like, I knew that I was fully addicted. Yet I thought that's just how it has to be for me. And it's just gonna be that

Siobhan: 4:04

way, like you weren't worthy of more.

Oliver: 4:07

I don't even know if it was like worthy if, well, you know, I guess it's kind of like that, like a thing that I really struggle with, with all this stuff is, or what I mean is like a reason that I know, a big reason that I use is feelings of like, I have a hard time fully connecting or fitting in. It feels sometimes to like, I guess, like mainstream society. And I tell myself that a lot more than it actually is a thing, you know, right? Like, I tell myself that, like, I don't fit in with like these people, kind of thing I other myself, like heavily, and I'm a lot better about that now, but, like, because really, like, it does not matter at all, you know. But I, I felt that, like, in a lot of these different, um, kind of, like, cultural groups I've been in, you know, I Well, do you want me to keep going on this? Okay? But, uh, please, yeah. So, like, so growing up. So growing up first, I grew up in a really small town on the East Coast, in Maryland that was extremely, like, conservative, like, a town and really small, like, it was a town of, like, 5000 Okay, and, and that's not where either. My parents are from. I don't, I don't really know exactly why we ended up there, but my dad is fully German, like, not a US citizen or anything. Oh, wow, yeah, like, full accent and everything. But then he, but he was an alcoholic, and he was really, really abusive, and so then during my and my mom's American, but she's from more like the Annapolis area and and she met my dad over in Germany when she was doing like an internship for social work, because my mom was a social worker anyway. So I grew up in that town, but because I was, like, the only person that wasn't, like, pretty much born in like, some small radius of that town, I was seen as, like, the German kid, even though, really, I was raised very American, and I sound very American, you know, yeah, yeah. And, but

Siobhan: 6:04

were you born here? Were you born? I was born. You were born in Germany? Yeah.

Oliver: 6:07

Sorry. Should I say that? Yeah. So, I was born in Germany. I was born in footsburg, which is in Bavaria, which is the largest state in Germany, like Bavarian hops and all that, right? But, um, yeah, I was, I was, I was born in the same city my dad was born and raised in. Oh, wow, okay, yeah, which is like an actual city, not like a small town or whatever, but, but anyway, um, yeah. So even though I was, even though I was kind of always disconnected from my German side, because that was my dad's side, and he was, like, not really, even when he was there in the picture, he wasn't, like, really present emotionally and and all those kind of ways, like a father should be. So yeah, and then my parents separated, and then I was kind of back and forth between the houses, but that whole time, and that was all through middle school, but the whole time, like my peers, even though I never had like issues with bullying, or I never had like issues socially when I was a kid, okay? Like, I got along with everyone, but I still got like other even though it wasn't in like, a malicious way,

Siobhan: 7:06

right? You just felt separated from them. Yeah? People would, like, bring it up

Oliver: 7:09

because, to them, they never met anyone that wasn't from like, that area of Maryland in particular,

Siobhan: 7:15

yeah, so you're just like an outsider from the beginning, yeah?

Oliver: 7:18

And so I know that, like, I know all of that kind of like feeds in and then. But then I knew that there was, like, something more that I wanted in life, so I worked really hard to get myself to college in Baltimore, but be able to make like, I started working when I was 12 to try to save up money so that I could kind of get to something else in life, right? And then I used that money when I entered college to help pay for college, plus I already I also worked all four years of college for the for, like, the residential halls, doing maintenance, which is kind of it was like a way to pay for housing all four years. But that also meant that I worked all the time on top of school so but that was like a way different, that whole environment was way different than, like, where I grew up. But then after that, eventually, like, I kind of moved all around, moved up to New York City, and I did some, like, traveling in Latin America, and then eventually came to California, to this Bhd at UC Berkeley, where it felt like a whole nother othering from like, how many, like, trust fund kids there were there, right, you know? And I, I don't know, like I when I started learning how much everyone just had so much money from their family coming in, because I, I was so confused, how people we were expected to live in, like, the San Francisco Bay area off of this, like grad student stipend of, like, 1000 something dollars a month, right? And I was like, How are all these grad students not freaking out about this? Like, I am, turns out, is because almost all of them have, like, money coming in elsewhere, so it's not really a problem. And I know there's some other ones, some other students that didn't say I didn't but, like, I don't know, you can't help but kind of, like, feel it's almost an envy, you know, because it's like, I'm, I feel like I'm having to, like, have a way bigger hurdle just to do this

Siobhan: 9:07

financially. Yeah, you're struggling. And they're like, chilling,

Oliver: 9:10

yeah, but, um, but yeah. But then it, but then it's weird, because then now, like, nowadays, like, I'm like, so grateful for all, like, the struggles I've been through. And like, I, in a way, wouldn't change that for like, anything, but at the time, like, I know that that's what really led that, and some things happened in my personal life really led to, like, me feeling just okay, I can't handle this, so I can't keep feeling like I'm so othered. So I'm just gonna, like, numb myself so because I don't want to have to stop working right? So I'm gonna numb myself and try to because that made sense to me at the time, like, I'm gonna just numb myself through working and doing this PhD, and I'm gonna have this PhD before the age of 30, was like, my goal, right? But then eventually, you know, as I as I know, you know, I had to take a medical leave of absence, and that was four years ago now, right? And that was during my fifth year of the PhD, which really. That fifth year, I like, didn't really get anything done because I was, like, using all the time. I was just high all the time, like, teaching classes and everything, which was like, such a shit show. But because

Siobhan: 10:09

you are when, when you went to college, that, like, your undergrad, did you know what you were going for? Like, no, no, no. So I so I was extremely intelligent. I just want to kind of put that in here, like, and because, especially the last couple, like, week or so, you've been here more and, like, hanging out, and I get to hear you tutoring now, and, like, just hearing the stuff that you're talking about is like, like, one, you know, your shit, like, but you're also, like, great at, like, communicating that to your students. And you it's been, like, really nice to see that side of you, but I always known that how smart you were or are? Well, I always wondered kind of how you got into your direction of schooling.

Oliver: 10:46

Yeah. So, okay, so the PhD at UC Berkeley was in data science, like an AI, my thesis. Okay, so it's an AI applied to ecology or environmental science. So I was in the environmental science department, but my thesis is the deepening ecology with artificial intelligence. So it's all about AI just broadly applied to ecology, but that's not a very common thing. And if you think about that, I've been on break for four years, but then did five years of the PhD program. That means I started that nine years ago, which is, you know what happened? And nine years ago, AI wasn't nearly as big as it is now, and especially not in environmental science. So it's kind of an unusual thing. And I pursued that partially because it's unusual. But it all comes back to and I don't have a degree in, like, my undergrad isn't in computer science or math or stats or any of that stuff. It's in, actually, biology. And I pursued biology because my dad, my dad, was out of the picture, like early high school, and I was really close with my mom and her mother, that my maternal grandmother, who passed away while I was an undergrad, but she she she didn't have like past, like an elementary school education formally, but she, she, and she was from, like, very country, like West Virginia. But she taught me a lot about birds and kind of, like environmental things from not like an academic lens, like from a practical lens, right? Yeah. Yes. Like, she taught me how to do, like, backyard birding and, like, recognize bird songs and stuff like that. And I was really inspired by that, and yeah, and then I just really wanted to pursue that kind of because she instilled that, like, love of nature in me. And then I think it was during my freshman year of undergrad, is when she had her two strokes, which then led to her passing away after, like, a lot of months of it being really rough. And then I wanted to kind of in her memory, to pursue, like something even, even like bigger than just the degree. So I pursued, like, doing research in these different labs at the at the undergrad campus that I was at, which was at University of Maryland, Baltimore County. So anyway, which isn't like University of Maryland's like big school, it's like a just another school there. So what I'm trying to say is I didn't go to like, a big name school, so that that will lead later to, like, my feelings about UC Berkeley, right? But anyway, so then I started doing research in these labs. And I got, and I kind of did that three of the four years of undergrad, like, sophomore, whatever you call it, junior, senior, yeah, that kind of thing, yeah. And so doing that research with birds, I did some stuff with, like, analyzing bird songs with, like, some computer code and, like, some software. So that was kind of my first taste of, like, using computers and math to do something with, like nature data. But then it wasn't until my senior year of undergrad I I was pushing. I kept pushing for like, a year up until then. But then I got the opportunity to lead a project. And the project I led was a mathematically, mathematical modeling project that was estimating these bird territories and how they like shifted and changed over their breeding season. Oh, wow, yeah, which I loved. And I like, fully jumped into that. I ended up, like, presenting that work at a conference, at an ornithology conference, like bird research ornithology that I won best undergraduate research at, and then met someone there that I ended up getting hired to work with after I graduated undergrad and kind of, like, all these different things happen. And that was so like, preparing to do that research for that, like project I got really into programming, and the math and statistics just kind of like on my own, like getting into that, and that really quickly led to, like, AI, or like machine learning, and then AI as more in general. And I just love that. And like, something clicked in me that I was like, wow, you can use, like, computer code. And I. Like that as like a way to code can be like an abstraction of mathematics, which are like, which is our language of our universe, right? So which means you can use computers to make models of like, anything that happens in life or in nature. And that just kind of clicked with me. So then I got really into that eventually, like, taught myself all those things, like all of the coding and the AI like, way more in depth, and then got a job at a startup in New York City doing machine learning. Did that for a year, and then wanted to take all those skills and bring them back into like, the environmental science, biology slash ecology world. So found a professor at UC Berkeley that does that, reached out to him and said, Hey, I want to meet you and do that. I just kind of cold, contacted him, and I put together, like a project that I kind of saw some recent work that came out of his lab. And then I did, like my own. I made some synthetic data that kind of matched some of what they were doing. And then I kind of did my own idea of what I would do as like an extension of some of that recent work. And then I just made this whole project and like a whole demo of that. And then I flew out to California, met him and presented that, and he was like, You should apply to my lab. You should apply to the PhD program to work with me and be in my lab. And then that's what I did, and that's what happened. Wow, yeah, it was crazy. Well, you

Siobhan: 16:23

took the initiative to, like, piggyback off something he was already interested in, to get your kind of foot more in the door.

Oliver: 16:28

Yeah, you got to show because their egos, yeah, which is super smart, yeah, that's the thing, yeah. Oh yeah. I'm kind of in that like, position right now too, which we can get into, oh, because you're back into the Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what Professor to, like, get back into the one that I really wanted to work with, just email me back, actually, on the way here, like, 30 minutes ago, and said, like, I'm not in a position to take students. I'm like, but I'm just realizing, I think I just need to present something and make it clear to him that he doesn't need to fund me. Like, I can, you can do that yourself. Things are going well now, you know. And as you like, alluded to, right, that I'm, like, doing a private tutoring is like my main job, and also doing some contract work for startups. And that's just really has been so good financially and, like, rewarding as a as a job that I'm just, I think I actually would be able to, like, fund myself for probably a year and just finish the PhD out, which is a whole weight off of, like, whatever professor, right? And then also, you know, the reason I need to find a new professor is because, during the four year break, not to be rude, but a lot of professors are on the older side, and so the professor I had retired in the last four years, and so now, yeah, I'm just in that position. But

Siobhan: 17:35

I don't think that's rude. It's just kind of how life happens. You know, when your kind of whole thing is connected to someone else. And especially when they're in those kind of professorships, they are kind of on the older side.

Oliver: 17:47

Yeah. I mean, it takes a lot to get there, which I'm, you know, I'm aware of that, which is why I understand to, like, stroke someone's ego, like they really worked hard to get to where they are. So, yeah, I get it, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan: 17:59

And so, so So that's kind of where we met, is when you were in UC Berkeley, you were in your PhD program. You were probably in what year three or four. We met about four years ago, maybe just about think

Oliver: 18:13

I don't, I don't. So again, yeah, memory thing, I don't actually recall if I was, like, technically, a student still, or, yeah,

Siobhan: 18:19

I don't know if you were either I because I think I had, I think that was one of my flags, like so when we we met because you started or you met Hannah, and Hannah's your girlfriend, and has been for the last almost four years, and she and I were working together and became very good friends, and that's how we met. We met and kind of instantly liked each other. I really just thought you were, I mean, one, you're handsome guy, but you're very sweet and kind and with you two have a really nice vibe together. Thank you. And I've always thought that, yeah. And then there were things that were kind of like little cracks and things that made me nervous, yeah, yeah. And I know that you knew that, because then we started to have a little bit more, like head butting and not Yeah, kind of chilling,

Oliver: 19:05

yeah? Like, I know that, yeah. And that's the thing, is, like the details of that, like, I really don't I just, I know there was like issues, and I don't really know, like, what, oh yeah, exactly they were. But a

Siobhan: 19:16

lot of that is not stuff like, I mean, you need to rehash it. But just like, the little flags that I would see and, you know, things that like being really late or not showing up, or all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's horrible. How did you get into your addiction? Like, how did you, did you just start with, like, it's, I don't, I don't think weed is really a gateway. But, like, I mean, but like, how did you What introduced you to to your drug of choice, right?

Oliver: 19:43

So it was, it's a little bit of a complicated road, because, like, it ended up with, like, opiates and stimulants, which, like a really horrible combo. Specifically, it ended up with, like, I never even intended for it to be this way, right? Like, which is a funny quote to say about drug. Addiction, but it ended up with like, and I really say opiates, because I wasn't even like, actually like, it ended up being mainly fentanyl, because of things being cut with fentanyl and all that, right? And then it just and the price of it being so much cheaper on the street than like, other things. But, yeah, but anyway, so ended up like with that, and then meth, which I like looking back, that was the thing that I told myself, like I would never do, like, in my head, like years back, I was, like, very into experimenting with psychedelics and all that. And I had been, I think that actually, unfortunately, loosened me up to using other drugs. But specifically the drug that actually was, like, my go to is ketamine. And I was, like, always for years and years, that was the thing. Like I was a daily ketamine user for at least three years, I hope not more, yeah, and I had all kinds of like issues from that which I know, I know ketamine super popular right now. Art has become, and there are some like, very legitimate reason to like, I don't want to any any like drug, any like well, any pharmaceutical, but any, any drug, right? It kind of have like negative things when, like, misused or used way too much, or whatever. Yeah, and I did have some like body effects from it. I do know that ketamine has some great positive effects with, like, increasing neuroplasticity and helping with PTSD. I had PTSD, and that's the reason I pursued ketamine. I thought it was something that could help with that, which it did. I was having, like, night terrors and things like that, and but I wanted something where it would be, like, I could take it and then keep doing this, like, super high amount of work, like, 80 hours a week kind of thing, right? Which is what I was doing with it for a couple years, like, during the PhD and all that, like, before we met, yeah? So, like, like my second year of the PhD, the third year into, like, the fourth year, the you definitely got more and more. But it was like, Yeah, I went during that time, it probably went from like a weekly thing, or or twice a week kind of thing, into, you know, like, every day, yeah,

Siobhan: 22:08

become like a functioning, a functioning addict, yeah, right, like, there and there are high functioning addicts, like, there are people that use different things to get them the results. And it's like, at that time you probably had your vice, and then slowly, your vice takes over. Yeah? My grandma used to always say, make sure you have your vice and your vice doesn't have you Yeah, it's a slippery tug of war. Yeah,

Oliver: 22:27

it is, yeah. Because, like, what you know, because, so what happened with me, with with ketamine, is that I started having body issues after, like, I said, years of daily use, like, I was having all kinds of bladder issues and and just weird, and like, all kinds of, what they call a cake cramps and everything, like horrible pains in my body, like I went to the ER, a couple times for it. I passed like, three kidney stones in a couple yeah, that happened. And then, because of all that, I, like, it really hit me that I was like, I don't think I can keep using this stuff, even though, yeah, even though I wanted to. But then what at that point, though, psychologically, is where, that's where it really kind of mean, like, messed me up psychologically. It's like I, like, felt I needed it so strongly. So when I stopped taking it, all these like, panic attacks came back, like, all these things that I forgot were like issues that I was having because I was high all the time, which is where the opiates came in, because I pretty much was like, okay, and I understand that, like, benzos are probably more of a thing for panic attacks, but, like, I never really liked how cloudy those made me so and I don't know there's something about like ketamine, kind of, in a way, can feel a little bit similar to opiates. I know ketamine does attach to the same opiate receptors, but not like, as strong as opiates do, obviously. Well,

Siobhan: 23:47

there's something about a Vicodin that just, I will tell you, I love it, yeah. It was like, yeah. I was when I, like, some days when I didn't have quite as much pain, I was still having Vicodin because it would help with my anxiety. It helped with my mood. It made people more pleasant to deal with. Like, yeah. For the longest time, I slept with a Vicodin on my nightstand after I had gotten kind of myself clean, because I needed to know that I could take it. I needed to know I had that option and that I didn't need it.

Oliver: 24:17

Wow. But like, it would scare you not to, yeah, it was

Siobhan: 24:20

scared me. It scared me to it, yeah, to not have access to it, to not have the choice. So, like, it was a way for me to, like, almost, kind of like, Look my addiction in the face every morning and be like, Okay, I can do this. It's right there. I can take it. Like, I have a whole drawer full still, but like, I don't want to be that version of me anymore, because I wasn't my, like, I wasn't really living I was, yeah, like, barely getting off my couch. It was barely getting out of bed. I was like, yeah, just a shell of who I was, yeah. But, like, for the long but to get to that point was really difficult, yeah, and I'm not suggesting it's for everybody, but like, even now, when someone talks about it, I'm like, Oh, I love. Just yeah, one, you know, and

Oliver: 25:01

like, I, like, the truth is, like, yeah, yeah. I still feel like, I still am very aware of how, like, good, like, either ketamine would feel, or, like, multiple of these, yeah, like other things, like, I feel, I feel like, for me, it was more like, norco's, like, hydrocodone, but I think, actually, that's very, I think that might be the same thing as Vicodin, but now I don't even know anymore, yeah, but I used to know that stuff, like,

Siobhan: 25:22

perfectly, hydrocodones, I think are Vicodins, and then the oxys are, like, Percocets, right?

Oliver: 25:29

Yeah, so, but anyway, yeah, no, I so I totally feel you. It's just that I know, like, and I think, I think you're saying, like, the same thing, I think. But it's like, I know where all that stuff will, like, lead me, you know, because, like, and I just, I saw how much I wasted my potential, my time, my effort, and almost lost my life a few times because all that stuff. And how, how quickly, like, I said, it went from like, Okay, I'm into psychedelics, and I don't think there's like, an issue I ever have had with those, or even have now, but then how that made me feel, like, Okay, getting high, just in general, was, like, more acceptable to me, I think, right? And then ketamine is a dissociative, but feels kind of psychedelic ish, yeah. And a lot of people like, lump it into that, but I don't really agree with doing that for a lot of reasons, the kind of reasons I'm talking about. But I think because of that, then that just made me feel like, Oh, yeah. So there's nothing wrong with me using that all the time, right, right? There's no limit to it, right? It's not like, it's, I even told myself, like, oh, it's not an opiate, it's not like a benzo, it's not like alcohol. It's like, there's no problem with it, but, like, there's definitely a problem with it that I had. And then, um, yeah. And then from there, it's like, like, I said, then it's when I'm that desperate, because of how much I psychologically needed that drug to not be able to use it. It's like, then I was like, okay, whatever. Just use opiates. But then I was so fucked up on opiates that I was like, I need something to help me be able to still work, right? That's what led to the stimulants, which I never was going for, right? But that's how that all happened. And then it's just one thing led to another. Then it's like, smoking fentanyl and like, meth, right? Like, Jesus and I went from, like, a PhD program at UC Berkeley, you know, of all places, to like, yeah. So from the time that you and I have met, it's been like, four years, so I've been sober now two and a half years, which I don't know if we said during this, but two and a half years I've been sober, and it's all been like positive, like, on the up and up since then, but then going back four years to, like, that year and a half leading up to two and a half years ago, it was like, I am on the, you know, kind of dropped out, quote, unquote, of like, this PhD program at UC Berkeley that I worked so hard to get to right, right? And then I eventually, you know, left my, like, two bedroom apartment I had on my own, and then had some kind of weird, like, apartment with some tweaker people for a little while, and, like, San Leandro, and then eventually, like, I have, like, a broken down car that I'm sleeping out of, and that happened for months. And that's when Hannah and I actually got back together, because she's been, you know, with me through this. And we broke up for a while, which for a lot of good reason on her part, and then, but when she got back with me, I wanted to keep up this illusion that everything was fine, right? And so she would come visit me, and I was just in this whole, yeah, I'm just in between apartments, which I even told myself that really was what was happening. But really I would get, like, hotel or motel rooms. It went from hotel rooms then to motel rooms for like, a, I don't even know how many months when she would come visit me and stay with me for a couple days or whatever, but then I would be back to living out of my car. Like the other times it's like, and you know what I was doing, like, when she wasn't around, then as I was going around and just, like, stealing, like, the most ridiculous things, right? Like, like, roof racks off of cars and stuff, and just selling them on offer up. It was horrible. Like, how, like, if I have all this potential and, like, work so hard, if I'm thinking I'm the hot shit, like, how is that what I'm doing, right? You know? Like, it's ridiculous. And like, yeah, and then, and I'm like, fine to talk about this too, but yeah. So then eventually, what that led to is, and I got arrested for trying to steal a car, just which was not even a planned out thing, was just, like a spur of the moment, someone was doing, like, Uber Eats, yeah, they left their car on, went to drop off food, and I just got in it. While I was walking by and tried to take it, didn't even know where I was going to take it to, didn't know what I was going to do with it, but I was like, I just need money. I just need money, you know? And like, a total, like, finish thing, I was definitely high. And, yeah, then I got caught, got arrested, hiding in a bush, and some ran a person's yard and then spent six months in jail, and that's really what got me clean. So that's two and a half years ago. Is when that started. So the first six months of my sobriety were in jail, which was horrible, but, you know, it got me clean. So it's all good,

Siobhan: 29:37

yeah? Well, yeah, that was like, your rock bottom, yeah? Like, and it's like, different rock bottoms. Like, everyone has a rock bottom. Some people have high bottom. Some people have low bottoms. Yeah. Like, I think I was lucky, like, my like, relative to going to, like, jail for six months. My like, I just, like, woke up in my life and was like, What the fuck like, I worked I haven't done anything. Like, I barely leave my house. I mean. Marriage that's like, not helping me any, if anything, it's hurting me more. And like, I, you know, but I had nothing to like, I had nowhere to go. When I left my ex husband, I, like, called my parents and was like, Can I come stay with you? Because I haven't worked because of my injury, I have nothing like, I can't keep staying in this because it's not going to get me any healthier. Yeah, like, I got to figure out how to live in pain so I can not have prescriptions, right? And all the doctors just kept giving me more prescriptions. That was all they ever offered me, yeah?

Oliver: 30:28

Because their whole thing is just to treat like a thing, not like, yeah, exactly, right. So, like, they just don't know what to do. I mean, I maybe they're getting better about that. Sometimes I feel like, maybe that's the case. I don't really know. And in the end, though, I'm realizing, like, you can't really trust like anyone else, like you, like, only you have to get yourself like, out of that, you know, like, because the other thing is, when you're in that, like, it's hard to even tell, like, what is actually great, like, advice, what's bad advice, like, what's what people are actually looking out for you or not like, but then in the end, only you can do it,

Siobhan: 31:02

right? Well, yeah, because it's you're like, you're not the, you're not the real version of yourself, right? Like you're now a shifted version, because all that stuff in your system shifts everything, like all your hormones, your biology, your brain chemistry, it like shifts and twists the way that you think. Yeah? So like you're, you're not even having clear thoughts, and then there's like, that anxiety of always needing to get your fix, or, like, trying to make sure that you've timed when you take everything right, yeah, so that you can, like, get the shit done that you need to get done. But then, like, yeah, and it's like, okay, well, if I can, if I take this now, and I can feel like this by that time, and then this person, you know, like, it's like, this weird, yeah? Like, brain dance that you're doing where you like, spewing all this extra time on just that stuff, yeah? So then when people are talking to you half the time, all you're thinking about

Oliver: 31:52

is, yes, you're drug scheduling in your head, right? Or, like, Are

Siobhan: 31:56

you showing symptoms of anything? Can they tell that you're on and how to avoid it? How do you Yeah, yeah, so it's like nothing is ever real, yeah, because you're so kind of always into someone, another place in your brain, no, for

Oliver: 32:09

sure, it's horrible. It's horrible and like, it's crazy, how, it's just crazy, really, how, I mean, I feel like so many people say this, like a cleaner and addiction or whatever, but just how, like, how like, softly, I guess is what I mean, that it creeps up. Like, how quietly it like, yeah becomes it takes over Yeah. And, like, my brother says that. So my brother, who does not use drugs, like, I think I don't. I think he's tried weed, like, one time it's like that, like, he's really it does not do drugs, right? And I think that he told me so. So anyway, for him, it was hard to, like, understand, but he knew that I was he did know that I had a lot of pain, like, emotionally from childhood. Like, he's slightly older, he left the house three and a half years, or, like, three years before I did, and in that time, like that was when a lot of things with my dad got, like, really bad, and then my dad left during that, so he kind of, my brother, kind of got out of that. And, like, really just like, like, distanced himself, whereas, like, my little sister, who's in like, three and a half years younger than me, I felt like I had to, like, sort of protect her and myself, and I didn't feel like I could leave her right in this situation when my dad was still around. So I just feel like I, like, tried to face that head on, which was, like, the very worst thing that, like, a son, or like, you know, a kid can do, like, with their like, addicted parent or whatever, right? And then, yeah, and then that obviously leads to all kinds of weird feelings I had later when, like, I'm myself, and like, an addiction, even though it's not alcohol, but like, how is it any different than, like, how my dad was acting, right anyway? But what I was going to say is my brother said that the way, like, he's told me now that I've been clean, he's told me the way that it would seem, even though this sounded kind of, he said, like, you know, it sounds kind of corny or weird or whatever, but it seriously was like a sci fi movie where you had, like, some kind of alien that like, took over your brain, where, like, you looked like you and everything, but it's like, it just was not you. It was like, it was someone else that was, like, controlling your body. And like, I didn't really understand that when he first told me, I think, but like, I totally, like, get that now That's totally what it's like. And it's, it's so creepy to, like, not have control over yourself, you know, it's, yeah, it's awful,

Siobhan: 34:22

yeah, I've heard other people explain it like that, and that's kind of how I, like, I've held on to that too. Is like, I for, like, I tried. I really didn't think I was going to be an addict. You know what? I mean? Like, I grew up with a bunch of them too. I have nine uncles. I would say five of them have been in the program, yeah? And some of them should have been, right, you know, and various different levels of addiction and various different substances. So, like, I had firsthand seats for a lot of it. So, like, I and when I first started getting prescribed and stuff, I was like, No, I'm gonna, like, have one doctor prescribe everything, right? So I would go to like, six different doctors in a week, and they'd all try to prescribe. Me something. And I'd like, no, no. I want one doctor, like, send it all to my primary care. Like, I wanted one person to kind of have my back and know, like, what is interacting with what, and he knows what he's prescribing. And, you know, I would check in with the pharmacist every once in a while, and then eventually the pharmacist was even like, Do you know how much drugs you're on? Like, what's wrong with you? And it was like, and I was like, What do you mean, like, why is that even your concern? Like, hey,

Oliver: 35:22

you got offended. Yeah, I

Siobhan: 35:24

got like, was just like, and he was like, you know, what's wrong with you? And I it was just kind of the it was probably his tone more than anything, because it didn't, it felt more like accusatory then and judgy than like, right, concerned, yeah. And so I thought it was doing everything right, and still ended up being taking way, not I wasn't taking more than I was prescribed, but I was prescribed way too. Yeah, right. And so slowly it just took over everything. And then I was in that addiction, and I was like, I don't know what else to do, and how do I get out of this? And if I stop taking it, then my body hurts so much more that I can't even think straight. I can't do anything, and I can't, I can't physically move because I'm in so much pain. I was getting like, migraines three days a week where it was, like, light sensitive and, like, could barely hear sounds, yeah?

Oliver: 36:09

So, you know, I've never experienced migraines like that. I don't think, I'm sure I would remember if I have, yeah. So I've never had that. But the only thing that I know is, well, so like, the thing that I was experiencing, that I would say, is kind of similar, is like I pretty much was having when I tried to get off of these things. It was like, usually, night terrors through most of the night, three days, three nights a week. So kind of like, the same sort of thing, right? And then that would just, like, keep me up and everything, you know, I'm like, not getting enough sleep. And then, not only that, but I'm like, so on edge, like, all the next day, right, right? But terrible, yeah, it is. And it's just like, Yeah, I mean, just taking your body, like, totally off balance, or, yeah, off like, a balance, or whatever, just really, yeah, it's crazy. I'm not really sure what else to say about it.

Siobhan: 36:57

Yeah. But you have, like, you, do you think that if you hadn't gotten arrested, you would, do you think you would be cleaning and I know that's a hard question because, but i You were so kind of deep in it, yeah, I don't know. Do you think anything else would have pulled you out? I

Oliver: 37:10

think I would have been. I think I would be dead if I didn't get arrested, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. I mean, I don't know if it's really unfortunate, like it's unfortunate that I was that bad, right? I mean, because I know that, I know it's weird, because I'm sure the way I was, there would be like glimpses of, kind of my normal personality, or in certain ways, you know. And also it was true that I kind of, especially for Hannah, I did try to not use, I tried not to use when I, at least was around her, right? So then I know that she then sometimes got these, like glimpses of the real me, but then, I don't know, but, but still, it was kind of, it was still this kind of like, I mean, if you think about it that way, then like, that means, when she saw the real me, it was always like a hung over me, in a way, right? Even though,

Siobhan: 37:57

even though the best version of you, yeah, it was a very it was a closer version, yeah.

Oliver: 38:01

I mean, it was, like a way more emotional version, and like a way more just, like, on edge and stuff version about everything, but then, yeah, but no, so yeah, going back to the question, though, like, yeah, no, I don't think I think that. So, something that happened with me, also that I don't know how much you know about this is that when I said that I was, like, living at so after the living in the San Francisco, like the after living in, like the Berkeley slash Oakland area, having my own apartment while I was going to the PhD program, then taking leave of absence, or medical leave of absence, and then, like I said, I then got that kind of weird apartment that I was at in San Leandro. I think I was only there, like, really, like, six months or something, or maybe less. But during that time, and I was with this, like, tweaker dude that I was, quote, unquote, like, friends with, but really, really, he, like, totally fucked me over in a lot of ways. Like, because when I got arrested, I still left, like, a bunch of things there. And that was, like, actually all my valuable computers that I had built, right? All, like, these nice speakers that I literally paid$4,500 for, and he, like, just being a tweaker, like, sold them all for, like, next to nothing, right? Like, to get his fix, yeah, like, literally, like, probably $15,000 worth of stuff. And that was, like, everything I had, right? And so when I got out of jail, I found that out me being sober, like, and I actually got there, he didn't have the nerve to tell me, like, that was a whole thing, wow. I was there with Hannah, actually, and then I was just showed up because I thought, like, he would have some of my things, and I could just pick him up, right? Anyway, but yeah, so, so I'm getting off track because all, yeah, I'm trying to remember, like, all these things like that that have like happened. But yeah, so during that time though, I started like, kind of running with some really shady, violent people, honestly, some people that were like out of prison for like, it was actually, it's actually some people that were out of prison. For what they were doing was they were, you know, with firearms and everything, like robbing coke dealers. That was, like, their thing, but like, that's a dangerous, like, home invasion, robbing, like, like, tying them up kind of thing and all that. So I'm like, kidnapping and robbing, yeah, and I'm hanging out with these people because, why? Because they've got the good drugs because of that. And I'm like, you know, for whatever reason, I was like, trying to, like, like, work for them and, like, build like, some kind of like relationship there, and then they wanted me to do they wanted, they were interested in me because of computer skills. They wanted me to do some, like, sketchy things with, like, I don't know, just some like, sketchy computer stuff. The truth is, like, I was never even able to implement any of that stuff that they wanted me to do. And looking back, it's actually not that difficult of things to do, right? But I was just so, like, not good. I was like, not functional. So I couldn't even, like, get that done. They ended up turning on me, and they ended up, like, doing a home invasion on me while I was at that apartment. Wow. And they stole all my things. The only things were left were those things that then I those, like speakers and those computers I'm talking about. So those were the only things they didn't take then and they they beat like the hell out of me, like I was, like, I was all messed up, and they had guns and all that so and then it was a few months after that is when I got arrested. But like, I because after that happened, I like, fled, and that's when I was living out of my broken down car down in like, the San Jose area, and, yeah, which is just, I don't even know why I was there, kind of thing, but yeah, I was there. And then that's when I got arrested, six months in jail down in that county. And then when I got out, try to go get the rest of my stuff from the guy who he didn't beat me up, the guy with my roommate, but like, like, I said he had sold whatever was left, and he also didn't help in that situation. He just let it happen, right? He

Siobhan: 41:51

was there. Oh, he was Yeah, I think I do remember Hannah saying that you guys had gotten robbed. But I think she downplayed some of it, because at that point, like, there was things that were happening. She and I had, like, some struggles over, like, me being like, scared of her, kind of, yeah, being in some of those places with you and, like, just was, like, nervous, yeah. And I would have been too. I was like, Hannah, I just don't know. There's something about him. And she's like, No, no, you just don't know him that well. I'm like, I don't know. And like, yeah, you know. And then, because she didn't, we didn't know you were using. I mean, there was glimmers of, you know, yeah, we knew some stuff, but not to the extent it was. And, you know, I'm what, almost I'm what, 15 years older than you guys, or at least I'm 15 years older than Hannah. I didn't know that, yeah. So, okay, you know, so I and I so I just have a little a few more years under my belt of like, yeah, seeing things and being nervous and, you know. But I also always said to her, like, if he's your choice, then I'm here for you, like, and I'm here for always, like, let me tell you you can't see him. I'm not going to be, like, fighting with you about it. I'm going to tell you, like, I'm nervous, I'm nervous about this, and I'm nervous you're saying this is happening or that's happening. Like, I just want you to be aware, you know. And then after you did get arrested and everything, and everything. And she was like, Well, I'm going to get him out of jail. And I'm like, Okay, well, just like, be cautious of this, and watch for this. And you know. And then when you did admit to her your stuff, it was like, Okay, well, now at least he knows we know why this was all happening. Yeah, yeah. And if he's an addicted like, then that's different. And, like, I was like, but also that means you might not know Him the way you think you do, yeah, yeah. So to hear you say that, like, you know that, you know that she got to see glimmers of you, is she did because she, that's what kind of had kept her connected to you.

Oliver: 43:30

Yeah, it was really, it's really wild that she's, like, been around where a lot of, like, what happened, and, I mean, I'm extremely grateful for it. And also, yeah, I mean also, like, just how authentically she showed me love was totally a thing that, like, snapped like, it just made things click in my head, like when I was in jail, like in the because in the first couple weeks I was there, especially the first week, I definitely was like, feeding, like, I gotta get out of here. I gotta, like, use whatever, right? And it was, like, such, like a nightmare. And I was like, Really, so I was detoxing, obviously, and helped with that. So, like, I'm like, going, getting, yeah, it was just, it was just a nightmare, yeah. Like, you get

Siobhan: 44:10

to jail, and then they're like, here's a soft blanky and a warm cold or a cold compress for your sweaty head while you're detoxing. Yeah? Just like, yeah, tough shit.

Oliver: 44:19

Yeah, no, I mean, and they did all kinds of, like, weird, like, strip searches during that. I'm like, What is going on, right? And, yeah, but, yeah, but, but anyway, like, I just recognized, like, how authentically, like she loved me, and how really, like I cared for her too. So, yeah. So while, while I was in like that first week, or whatever, of jail, and maybe, maybe it was really, like, actually, I want to say was in that first week, but maybe it was realistically, like, kind of even in the first month, I guess. But yeah, I just, I just realized, like, how much I really cared. For Hannah, which I did realize that before, like, when I before I got arrested, going back when I asked her to, like, get kind of back with me, even though I was still using, it's like, it's because I realized, like, how much I really did, like, love her, but I was feeling all kinds of like negative ways towards her, which really were all just because of, like, drug use, because she was kind of what I what I recognize now is what happened, is like she was coming in between how much I was trying to use so it was like I had all these weird, like, feelings towards her that were like, hard to because when I would actually think about it, I'm like, I don't know why I'm, like, not liking her about this, this or this, but like, looking back, I realized it was that. But anyway, so then when I'm like, forced to be sober in jail over the first few weeks or the first month, or however long it really was, yeah, I just realized, like, you know, I felt authentic love from her, and it made me feel like I can really just feel that for myself and with her, and I can have just a different life, really, you know that, like, where I was going with things, how I was living, was not what has to be like, it can totally be different. And then that's what that really is, what inspired me to get clean. She's a huge, huge part of that. And it's just so crazy that she, like, looking back, it's so crazy. What, like, she kind of went through with me, like, I'm like, I can't believe some of it, you know, yeah, because it was, it was bad. A lot of things were real bad. So, but yeah, like I said, I'm extremely grateful, yeah, for

Siobhan: 46:29

her. But I think it also says something about like, that you knew that you were worthy of it in some way, right? Even if it you don't see it then. But like, I can hear you saying it, and say, like, earlier you said, like, you would try to not use when you were going to see her, yeah, right. So that's kind of where that mixed feeling comes in, because now you don't want to be using, you don't want to be too high in front of her, but then she shows up. You want her there, but then she shows up. And you're like, now you have to leave so I can get high. Yeah? So it's like, yeah, yeah. And so, but you're not realizing it in the time. And then you're like, Wait, why do I want her here? But now I don't want her here. And like, I am happy that she kind of never got into that world with you, because if she did, like, you could have gone down. Yeah, and I think that happens to people, and they get super judgy about it, and it's like, no, no, but it's an easy slide. Like, people get judgy when, like, when, like, someone might judge you harshly, or her harshly for staying with you, because, like, you're an addict. Why would she stay with you? Well, you're still a human being who she has love for and she doesn't want to just throw you away because you're not It's not throwing you away. Doesn't do anything, not for her, not for you. You know, it's also like, if she was to go down that road, people would then kind of blame you or judge her for that, and it's like, no, no, but like, that's a one, it's a decision she would have made. But two, it's that slippery slope. Like, if you would just introduced her and it got her the way it had gotten you, like, it's not that's the fault thing, I think, is what I don't like when someone tries to, yeah, for sure. I mean, because you didn't realize how bad you were until you were bad, yeah.

Oliver: 48:02

I mean, yeah, like the, you know, the in terms of, like, fault, the only fault that I really like. So, you know, people, people totally like to, I think it's really hard for people to, like, accept how addiction actually works, and how common it is that it makes it so it's way easier. I think, I think this is what happens. I think it's way easier for people to just other, like people that are addicts, just to, like, dehumanize them, because, like, it's so hard to understand. Like, how could that be like a person, just like you and I, you know, whatever, right, that's now living this way, or, like, seeing the way, you know, but the truth is, like, Sure, there's some people that are really like out there in terms of their like, how, I guess, connected to reality, their their minds already are, but for the most part, that's not the case, right? The most part, it's people that like, could be like, quote, unquote, normal people that are like, going to work, going, you know, whatever. But trauma is, like, always the precursor to addiction. Like, I don't see it not being that and in one way or another, you know, and it's just, it can be, I don't know, but yeah, people do that. And then, yeah, and then what I was gonna say, what I was thinking about, when you said that thing about fault is, like, I think the only fault is that humans have developed these drugs that naturally, like our brains are like, it's not normal to have like, this amount of these drugs, like in our in our world, right? So then, like, when we get that huge, like, rush of dopamine or whatever, serotonin, what, you know, whatever, whatever, all these neuro chemicals are, right? When we get those huge rushes of that, it's like, Those aren't things that we evolve to, like, have around, right? So it's like our brains are like, Oh, that is like an incredible it's like an orgasm, right? Kind of thing. It's like, that's not, you know, our brains tell us get more of that, right? So it's in any. And in any way you look at it, is actually this uphill battle that's not anyone's fault, other than people that have created these drugs, I guess. But also, I get, you know, it makes sense, why they Well,

Siobhan: 50:10

yeah, I mean, half the reason we have such an opiate and fentanyl problem, or a fentanyl problem, is because of the opiate problem, right? That was created for people to get rich off of, yeah, like, it's messy, and now it's like, there's so much documents or documentaries you can wash on it. There's so much, like, real things that they knew what they were doing, and they just didn't care because they were othering people and saying, like, but if we give it to those people over there, we can make money, and who cares what happens to them? Yeah, it's

Oliver: 50:36

like, it's like, cocaine and the inner cities and, like, the 80s or whatever. And like, every whatever was going on with, like the government, I don't know how much of that, what exactly was happening, obviously, but like, whatever was going on with like government, or any kind of, like, pushing of cocaine in inner cities, you know, and then into, like crack cocaine and all that. Like, it was kind of like, I think a lot of the reasoning there was probably that one. It was like, well, because maybe at that time before crack cocaine was only this, like, really rich, like, little like, play drug, or whatever, which, you know, it still kind of has that, but then, but then with crack, maybe they didn't see it turning into that, I don't know. But then, when that wasn't inner cities, it's kind of like, well, these are, like, you know, the slums, the poor, of the poor, like, they're already, like, killing each other, whatever, like, you know, bullshit like that. But yeah, I feel like, I feel like that's the same kind of analogous thing of, you know what? I don't know what happens with these, like, opiate companies or whatever. Yeah, I

Siobhan: 51:31

think it is very much the same. And I think the fact that we let it happen again, like, is just because we're not paying enough attention as our society and we're not holding people accountable enough, because if, though, if you know the Sacklers hadn't done all of that, the amount of addicts in this country would be, I would say half, if not more, yeah, because almost everyone I know that is on like the fentanyl or doing meth or doing any of that, most of them started with opiates. Yeah, because OBS get harder and harder to get. So you have to go to the street stuff, right? The street stuff, the worse it is. It seems like the worse it is, the cheaper, or, like, the cheaper it is,

Oliver: 52:10

yeah, the more accessible it is, honestly, yeah. I mean, it's everywhere, and so much stuff, so much stuff is really, like, cut with meth. I mean, even like Molly and MDMA and all that, right? It's like party drugs. It's, it's for people that don't do that, right? Like, if they take, you know, if they eat, like, a dose of meth or whatever, then yeah, they're gonna be like, Raven for 12 hours, you know, like, ah and all that. But yeah, and

Siobhan: 52:32

sometimes one hit of meth is enough to set off your addiction. Yeah, it's

Oliver: 52:37

crazy. Yeah, it's so strong it really is. Yeah, it's crazy strong

Siobhan: 52:41

and it's scary, how prevalent it is, like, and how many people, like, I went out on a date once with this guy, and we, like, went to for a walk, and we were, like, hanging out. And he was like, you want to come back to like, My place is around there. We'll, we'll swing by, I'll grab something. We'll, like, go grab food. Like, all right? And it was going like, well, you know, for a first date. So we go back to his place, and he's like, Ah, you mind if I smoke? And I was like, No. And I just assumed he was talking about weed, yeah. And dude brought out, like, a little glass. Oh my. And I was sitting there, I turned around, and I was like, he took a huge hit. And I was just looked at him, and I was like, that's not weed. Like. I was like, I thought you were doing a DAB or something. And he was like, Oh no, he blew. And I was like, is that meth? And he was just like, yeah. Why do you want something? I was like, I gots to go, like, yeah. And, I mean, I guess good on him for putting it right out there. But I was like, What the fuck is my life like? And I would have never pegged him for a guy that smoked meth, yeah, I know it's crazy. I just was like, and he was just so casual about it, yeah, that I was like, you know, you should hide that, right? Like, yeah, that's crazy. I was just like, and I was just like, all right, I got like, this is not I can't like, yeah, thank you.

Oliver: 53:50

Yeah. It's wild. You know, it really is like, yeah. It really is like, everywhere. I don't know. And I feel like it's um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if this is the case, but yeah, I feel like it is, like, just more and more available. Like, you know, not just meth, but, like, all these kind of, I don't know drugs. And then, like, on one hand, I'm really despite all this stuff with me that happened with addiction and now, like, being sober and all that, I do think that I don't like the I don't like that drugs are illegal. I don't like that. There's, like, criminalization of them, because I don't see how that's helpful or makes sense, but, yeah, but then at the same time, it's like, I don't actually think that people should be maybe, like, doing them as much as they are, in a lot of ways. And, you know, then with that, it's like, yeah, I don't know, like, there, I really now that I've gotten clean and I'm I'm back to being like, perceptive, I guess, and everything. It's like, I'm seeing a number of people that really are, like, totally in like, an addiction, but I know that they're not like, that. They have not like, accepted that that's what's happening. Like, they're not aware. Of it, or at least in denial of it, or whatever, and they're like, fully functioning and everything, like we were talking about before, and, yeah, and it's just, it's just really crazy, like, How selfish it makes you, like, even the best intention, even people with the best intentions. It's like, like I said, when those, when those things are so strong and your brain is then just, like, telling you, like, get more of that. Get more of that. It's like, it just it forces you to become this, like, at least in some degree, like, this selfish, like, person. You know, it's crazy. It really is, like, so crazy,

Siobhan: 55:31

yeah, because it shifts who you are. It's like your brother was saying. It's like an alien takes over your body, and it's like you get glimpses or glimmers of you, but it's that addiction has is now running the show. Yeah, and I think you're right that people don't understand it, and because they don't understand it, or I think, like, in some of my own things, I think it was, I didn't think I could be one, you know what I mean, like, and even sometimes I have a hard time saying, like, Oh no, I'm an addict. Like, I, no, totally. I still have a hard time. And I grew up going to Ellen on meetings and going to AA meetings and, like, I grew up adjacent to that world so, and to still say it now it kind of gets caught in my throat a little bit, yeah, and I think that it's scary to think I could be one, and so people don't want to like one. I don't think you should ever label someone else an addict. Like, I don't think that's just that's your kind of role. But, like, I think people don't want to talk about it because they're one, they don't understand it. Or two, maybe they're scared of it that they they know and understand how fast they could slide right? So it's easy to kind of other those people too, because then you kind of distance yourself from it. Yeah. No, yeah. Like, I don't talk to those kind of people, like, What do you mean? Yeah, no,

Oliver: 56:43

no, exactly, No, exactly like that. Yeah, I think that. I really do think that happens all the time. Because, yeah, I mean, just like, there's, there's things that are, I feel like it's more obvious with, I mean, to feel like that Feeney niche of like doing coke, and then feeling like I need to do more of that. The truth is, though, like, I feel that strong with ketamine than I do with cocaine, and I mean, and I've done plenty of both, but I way, prefer like, ketamine, and it makes me feel like I have absolutely to do more. Yeah, you know, it's like, there's no, like, controlling me with that. But what I'm trying to say is, like, you do that, actually let me, yeah, so to go back, it's like, then that's so wild that if that really feels that much stronger for me, there must be other people that it feels that much stronger. How Moorish it feels like, like needing more. I mean, that's what I'm not trying to say, more like dark, I mean, like needing more,

Siobhan: 57:34

right? Like the theme for it, yes, if you could understand that for what you like, but so you can understand what it must feel like for them, yeah? Or if you got, kind of, you wrangled that monster, but you can understand how hard it was and how hard it could be, especially if you're not going to admit it, yeah, like those people that you're saying are, you're like, well, they're high functioning, so it's harder for them to admit that they're an addict, because on paper, kind of, they look like they're doing great, yeah? But then when you look at them and you're like, oh, that person's like, half distracted because they're trying to figure out where their next fix is coming

Oliver: 58:07

from. I will tell you I absolutely believed that. And I think I even, like, had the nerve to say this to my mother, my mom at one point that I said that. I know I said it to myself into like, people, like, I don't know who, how many people? But I know I said this out loud, and I thought it plenty of times that I was as successful I was with getting into this PhD program and teaching myself programming and all this AI work because of drug use that I wouldn't have been able to get there without it. So the truth is that I was there despite using drugs. Like, I will say that I did get a lot of creative ideas from different like LSD and like mushroom trips and like things like that. But like, that was only because I already was going that path and was, like, seeking that in a way, right? And like, it's also, you know, who's to say that I wouldn't have gotten that much like creativity and, like, flow state kind of things out of, like, you know, doing intensive exercise, or, like, going on trips, or just new places, right, right? Sure, like, I mean, yeah, or like, meditating every day, which I did used to do, right? And I'm kind of getting back into that now again, but which I'm very happy about. But anyway, my point is that, like, I think, like, psychedelics are a whole nother story about this, because, yeah, they don't have all these negatives with, like, societal harm and body harm and all that. But like I said, they also, like, in a way, they get glorified, just like any drug can they get almost like, praised as being like saviors of people, right? And, and I'm all like, I really, I really think very highly of them, but like, I still totally like, see that as like, an issue. And like I said with me, they just getting, you know, tripping and everything, which is definitely like, way different than, like, being on opiates or whatever it just, it just totally made me feel like it's acceptable to be, like, kind of changed in that way, right? Like. Subconsciously. And so then it made it like, yeah, it just totally, I know that opened me up to be way more and more, like, open to, you know, eventually doing meth, even though, how do you go from psychedelics to meth? Well, I live that how you go there, and it's not direct, but, like, it totally eventually happened. Um, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that part's like, real crazy to me. But, well, I

Siobhan: 1:00:22

think it's too because we put like, I, if I was to, like, go back in time, I wouldn't put mushrooms and LSD in the same category that I would put, like, Coke and, yeah, Molly and or mvma, you know? I think those are, they should have been kind of delineated a long time ago as like, because we categorize them in the same way. But they are very different substances. They have very different effects, where, if, like, we'd kind of kept the plant medicine to the side, and then we had, like, hardcore drugs, I think that that kind of bridge wouldn't be as kind of built for you to go from like, Oh, I'm doing kind of mushrooms that are illegal anyways, yeah, why not try this thing like, Oh, if these are illegal, but they do all this good stuff, yeah, maybe all this good stuff over here, yeah, no. Like, and I think that's where that kind of bridge comes from. So I can, like, I think a lot of people kind of think they can't be related, but it's because we categorize them together. Yeah, that your brain is like, oh, it's actually, like, almost, like, a one for one, they're the same bad thing, yeah?

Oliver: 1:01:27

Like, if I'm looking at the scheduling, like, I would get just as much time if I got arrested for LSD as, like, this other thing. So, like, yeah, it's the same. But

Siobhan: 1:01:35

maybe the other thing, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Like, maybe the other thing isn't as bad as isn't as bad because it's in the same category as LSD, and LSD is great. So like, I think that's how you kind of get that reasoning, yeah,

Oliver: 1:01:47

totally, totally. That makes sense to me. No, yeah, totally. And like, yeah. And then, and then it just it, like, I know it added in that, that, like so many people that are in the psychedelics are into ketamine, and they just kind of, and they say it has psychedelic properties, right, right, which I do get. I mean, like, you go into a K hole, there is very trippy things that happen, but it's definitely different than, like, yeah, the mushrooms, LSD or DMT or, you know, things like, or like mescaline, things like that. But, um, like, I've

Siobhan: 1:02:16

tried ketamine, and I don't really enjoy it, and I don't think I've ever hit a K hole, because I've never been adventurous enough to try that, yeah, because I haven't been doing it in like, a, you know, doctor's office setting. It's not where I was doing it. I was doing it out, like, partying and stuff, and I was just like, I don't, I don't want to disassociate, like, I think, because, and that's kind of a personal preference, right? Like, I disassociate already to deal with the pain that's in my body. So I'm always slightly disassociated, so I'd rather have something to bring me back, yeah? And so, like, the thought of, like, being further, kind of away from reality, I'm like, No, I don't, I don't like that, like, it feels less controlling. Like, yeah, people that are in K holes talking to me for like, 25 minutes and then not remember, they even saw me, right? Yeah? So I've always been a little kind of skittish about it, yeah. And I'm kind of happy that I have been and happy that, like, Okay, well, I dip my toe in to just kind of understand it a little bit, yeah. And I would totally do it in a doctor's office. And, you know, see how it works with, like, a trauma specific thing, yeah, because I have a lot of trauma stuff in my life that I've never dealt with, and I, you know, through therapy, keep trying. And think there are things that I'll touch and there are things that I'm like, I don't really need to go back into that, right? Like, I'm okay with just being like, that's a chapter that I can just kind of acknowledge happen, but I don't have to work through it. All right, yeah. But sometimes I think, like, Oh, if I was going to do a ketamine treatment, what would I kind of ask to go through? But I'm like, I don't also know, if I want to even open it up, yeah, right. Because I think there are some things in your life that you can just kind of put in that box. I think there are some things you can't, you know, there are some things that come up, like you were saying your night terrors, like, there are some things you have to process, and there are some things that you can kind of just, I guess, shove down, yeah, I don't know if that's really healthy, like, we'll check the therapy, yeah.

Oliver: 1:04:01

I mean, I Yeah. I mean, I feel you with that, like, yeah. Like, you know. So it's a funny saying, but there's no free lunch. So even if, like, so even if you're able to use something like ketamine to then address things that it's just really difficult, bordering on impossible to address otherwise, it's like, it's not, like, there's not going to be anything that's going to come from the fact that, like, you did that though, like, you know, like, I don't know there's, there's, yeah, it's, it's not as side effect free, you know, as I feel like it's maybe portrayed to be, or that people want it to be. I mean, it would be, yeah, I mean, I guess that would be an amazing existence, right, if, like, there was no repercussions to many things. But the truth is that there is, you know, and when you're changing your brain's chemistry, and even if, in science doesn't currently know all the ways that it affects our brains, like, I know, first through experience, that like, it is definitely, like, changing, like, how I think, and, you know, like, all this stuff we're talking. Talking about like in the same ways that like like in different ways, but to the same kind of degrees that even like math or opiates can like, change, like, how much how you are. Like, I totally was, like, a different person using, like, ketamine every day and and, like, I was a different person like, in the later, like, kind of year or whatever, of using it than how I was when I first started using it, for sure, and it was a different experience. Like, absolutely, which is weird, you know, it's like, how it's kind of weird to think, like, how is that actually the case? But it just is right,

Siobhan: 1:05:32

something that was helping you and getting you kind of to your goals is now taking all the stuff you've worked so hard away. Like, how can that one substance be responsible, kind of in your brain for both, yeah, right, exactly like you give it credit for helping you to get some of those creative ideas and workflow states. But it's also the thing that made you have to take a leave and kind of lose all the things that you're working on, yeah? Because, yeah, it's like, that one thing shouldn't be able to be both things, yeah. And that's

Oliver: 1:05:57

what I mean about, like, the free lunches, like, as, yeah, it could have, like, great, beneficial things. But can you actually, like, Is your body or mind or whatever, able to actually, like, put a constraint on it? And the truth is, like, I can't, you know, like, I, even if I can at first, eventually, like, it's going to lead me to, like, using every day. I know it, you know. I just know it. And so I just can't do it, you know? And, yeah, um, so I don't know, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know if you know this other thing either, though. But during my, think it was my third year of my PhD that I, I was married, and then I got separated from someone, but she, she was and I know at first, when Hannah and I were together, I was talking about her like, all the time. And it's weird, because I don't even remember doing that. Oh, really, yeah, but I guess I was all the time, and I believe her that I was all the time. Oh, I know about her from you, yeah, right, but I don't I. It's like, I never really, like, talk about her much now, and like, because I don't know why I would, and I don't know why I was, I was just so, so, like, that's the thing about those about, like, a drug like that that helps with trauma, is like, when you overdo it, I feel like it does this thing where then you actually get stuck in the trauma and you don't go anywhere. So even though, like, I Yeah, you know, because it's like, even though at first, like, the ketamine helped me kind of get through some stuff, like, then with just doing it over and over, it's just like I got actually sucked back to, like, stuff I was using it to help me with, and I never got out of it, I was, like, so much weaker, like, more, like, bothered and everything by like, things that happened in my childhood with my dad, and things that happened, you know, in my early 20s, or, I guess, like, mid 20s with this ex wife of mine that I had and and that was all Okay, so I'll just touch on that. So she and I were experimenting with, like, psychedelics and stuff and kind of like raves and that whole scene together. We were both from the East Coast, but then we moved out to California because I got into that PhD program, and then

Siobhan: 1:07:56

so she moved out with you from Maryland. Yeah, slightly delayed.

Oliver: 1:07:59

I think I was out here six months before she was or something like that. Again, like, I don't remember exactly, but it was something like that she finished her undergrad in New York, which is why I lived in New York City for a year, because she was finished. That was her senior year of undergrad. So I just moved up with her there, and then I got into this thing at UC Berkeley, and you know all that. But anyway, so we were living together, and then, like, I said, we, like, kind of like experimented and stuff like that. But it was a lot more like, kind of bordering on, like, partying and stuff. But then eventually that's when, like, the ketamine, like, kind of came up here and there. But then what actually happened is, while I was, I think it was during my third year of my PhD when I was like, studying intensely for my qualifying exam, which is, like, it's a three hour exam that's just you and four professors. It's like the most important exam that you have for that whole PhD. And I had to study 30 different scientific papers from each professor. So 120 total that. And I didn't have any notes or anything, but they can just grill you on questions the whole like, yeah, they grill you on questions for like, two hours and 15 minutes. The first 45 minutes you have to present your what you want to do for your thesis. And they like, pick it apart and the same kind of thing. So it's almost like, when you defend your dissertation, it's exactly like that. But it's like, at least in that program, at least in the department I was in, or am in, it's like, front loaded, okay, as in, the actual defense is just like a talk that you give at the end, like they make

Siobhan: 1:09:32

sure that you can do it before you even start it. Yeah, yeah. Exactly that makes sense. So

Oliver: 1:09:36

and it's so intense, right? And like, and people, like, take like a whole semester, like grad students take, like a whole semester to or even more, to just prepare, like months and months, just to prepare for this thing. So I had some drama that happened with my PI my professor I was working for because I had all these computer skills, but in an environmental science department, he was really happy that I was able to. Then on the side to kind of do some work to help with the software that he was trying to build. It's like a side project. When I told him I couldn't do that because I needed to prepare for the qualifying exam, he got little revengeful, or like a little petty, and he took my funding from me, like two weeks before the semester started. So then I had to find a teaching job to help, because you have to either have, like a research grant money funding or you have to teach that funding, right? And he was giving me the former, but then he took that away from me, like just to be petty, and yeah, and then so I had to get a teaching job. So even though usually people just prepare for this exam. I also had to teach a class while that was all happening, and so I was doing easily, like 12 to 14 hour days, right? Like every day, weekends, like whatever. Then when I would get back home, that's when some stuff happened with my ex wife, where she I don't know exactly like, what happened, but something, something happened, and she had this issue with her eye, and she couldn't work for like, some months. She had to end up having, like, I think, a surgery that fixed it or something. But it was this whole like, weird thing, and she, like, really freaked out about that. And I understand, like, she had, like, constant double vision. Must be, like, scary as hell. But, but, and because we were experimenting a lot, like before, I started studying for this qualifying exam, because I really, actually took a break from, like, drugs while I did that, right, but at least for the most part, right? But then, but, because I was, like, wanting to do all this, like, tripping and all that stuff from, like, the years leading up, I ended up having this big jar of, like, Xanax bars in case I ever, like, had a panic during a trip and needed it. I think I only ever, like, use, like, a half, like, or something of one of them, but, and it was like, actually, like 100 of them, and that I got, like, illicitly, but I just had those anyway. So then I had those, like, back, like, not in a normal place I saw every day, right? So it turns out what was happening is that she was going through those and using them, and I didn't realize, because I was gone all day studying for this exam, like, every all day, every day, for weeks and weeks, months and months. But then she also turned out, which I didn't I wasn't doing coke then. And actually, I've never really been that into having, like, Coke. It's never really been my thing, even when I was using but she was getting Coke, I think from we had a friend at the time who was a dealer. So very obvious, they very easily could have been doing that. And the reason I know that is because, like, she, I would get home and she would be, like, on these it was, it was like, she was benzo out, and then also, like, on a stimulant. So it was kind of like back and forth, like, between these, like, weird, like, states, and she ended up becoming, like, really abusive. So she attacked me a bunch of times, like, just all this weird stuff happened. And I was, like, in the most stressed I've ever been in as an adult. Well, besides, I guess when I was in jail, but it was one of the most stressful things, like studying for this exam. I ended up passing an exam and all that. But like, yeah, I have like, scars on my arm that's that are from her, like, all this stuff happened and that, like, brought out a bunch of like trauma that related to that just associated with, like, how my dad was when I was a kid, right? Because he chose alcohol over being like a loving person towards me, and I was begging with my ex wife to not keep using like, Well, eventually I found out that she was like, just doing all that while I was gone and she got in trouble with her work. They ended up like, doing a drug test on her, which is how I found out she was doing cocaine, like a new substance happening, but I didn't know until then, which was months later. Anyway, that part that was all crazy, and I don't think you know, maybe much about any of that. I don't know, but that all happened, and that is actually it was, like after. That is when I kind of snapped, and that's when I went into, like, everyday using that was your

Siobhan: 1:14:00

catalyst, it's because you probably dated someone that was, like, your dad, like, we date, yeah, and then you married

Oliver: 1:14:06

six or seven years or something, and like, I realized, like, wow, I'm with, yeah, I had this realization that I was with the same, like person. I was, like, with my dad, but like, in this relationship, which is so weird, but I know, like, that's how it goes, and that's actually when all that stuff happened, shortly after, is when I had my first overdose. So how many times did you overdose? I think I've overdosed three times. Wow, pretty sure. Yeah, that was the first one. That's scary, yeah, it's horrifying, yeah, but, yeah,

Siobhan: 1:14:35

but we're glad you're still here. Yeah, I am too. And yeah, like you said a little while ago, you've been clean now two and a half years. So, like, yeah, maybe Jill helped you get there, but you've stayed there because of you and your hard work, yeah, for sure. Like, and now you're back on track with your back in your school. You're figuring out your PhD program, yeah, you know. So, like, you kind of fell off course. Most people might say, yeah. Like, you write it yourself, you know. Like, you got yourself down. But now you've gotten yourself back. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:15:01

I've been trying very hard, like, every day, very, very hard, yeah, and I, and I'm seeing it like, Yeah, I'm seeing it slowly, like, for sure, like, I'm doing like, better and better, and, you know, like, emotionally, I don't know, psychologically, spiritually, like, financially, school wise, or whatever. So yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And I am,

Siobhan: 1:15:20

yeah, yeah. It's really nice to see it. And you've done a lot of it on your own, which is hard, like, yeah, and that's not, it's not an easy road. It's not a lot of people have a hard time doing that. And, like, yeah, you've done it, and you've done it with, like, a lot of grace too, for yourself, which is nice to see, yeah, like, and you've been trying to make your mends and do the things, and, you know, be right by all, you're the people that you love, and that's a huge like, it's amazing to see, yeah? Like, thank you. I'm really hard.

Oliver: 1:15:49

Yeah, so hard, really, but, yeah. But I just feel like it's so necessary. I don't know it's like, something about that. It just feels like it's so scary to, like, reach out to someone. Like, like, my best friend didn't talk to me for a long time. My best friend, Quan, like, he didn't talk to me for a long time. And like, and I never use, like, the like, those drugs with him, actually. But, and it's not like, he's just like, I don't know, he just, I was being like, a horrible friend, and, like, just so, like, on and off and like, whatever. So yeah, he stopped talking to me, even when I got clean, I reached out to him a bunch of times. He, like, left me, just ghosted me, kind of thing, for like, a long time, for like, I think, like, a year or something, and that like, destroyed me. I was, I was so upset about that. But eventually he, he saw that I was, like, consistent and kept, right, I don't know, just kept, like, every once in a while, reaching out and trying, and then, yeah, now we just hung out with him, like, actually, just the other day, like, Saturday or Sunday, so, and I don't know, my relationship with him is now, like, so much more, like, I think, so much stronger, because I've been like, so vulnerable with them, you know. And I've just opened up about, I really want, I really don't want to lose you. And I really was, like, you know, messed up in all these different ways, and I'm so sorry that I was, like, a horrible friend, but I'll never, like, take you for granted again, right? Same things I've said to Hannah, you know, and yeah, that I've said to other people, and it's, yeah, it's definitely scary as hell, but I appreciate you recognizing that, yeah,

Siobhan: 1:17:15

well, of course. And because, and I think it has to be, it should be recognized and talked about, you know, like, because, I let you Quan pulled away because he's watching a person he loves and who's been his friend for years basically kill themselves. Yeah, and it's hard to watch. Like, I have a few friends that are in deep in their addiction, and I'll check in with them. But I also am, like, I keep a distance, and I have to for my own heart and my own brain, and because I don't want to get sucked in, almost, and even though I know now, like, it would never, like, I always I have, like, you know, maybe there's still nights I drink a little too much, or, you know, but I have, like, checks and balances I've set up for myself because, like, I have chosen not to be completely sober. Like, more California's, yeah, no, I'm not sober. I can't say that, you know, I drink not every day, but I drink quite often. And, like, I smoke a lot of weed, but I now know, like, when I have my vices, and I know, like, I have to take breaks, and I know I need to check in with myself, and I know there's people that I'll be like, you know that would check me if I started to go too far. Off course, yeah. And it's like, it's like figuring out your boundaries, almost. And it sounds like you probably didn't get raised with a whole lot of boundaries. Yeah, I didn't either. And so it's like trying to figure out how to be the version I me, I want to be in the world, but also like knowing like someone like you, like I have learned so much from you and gotten to, like, have exciting, fun times. And like, I'm gonna get, you know, if I had just said to Hannah, like, hey, you know, fuck that guy, yeah, he's a, you know, a piece of shit or whatever. And like, either, that would have caused us to either not be friends anymore, you know, like, I would have lost her too, yeah? Or, you know, she could have taken bad advice from me and left you and then had some resentment all the time, right? You know what I mean? And then that would have lost our friendship, yeah? But by just kind of being respectful of, like, okay, that's your decision. You're an adult, and I'm gonna be here for when you need me. And like, I'll, I'll be here to, like, be open to him being, like, the better version of himself, and if he is great, but if he's not, then, like, we're gonna have, like, this thing in our friendship where I don't hang out with your man, you know. But it was so nice to see like you were doing all the things and being the person that you wanted to be for you and kind of for her, yeah, no, for sure, yeah. Because I know, like you said earlier, you're the only one that can do it, and you have to do it for yourself, yeah? But she's a big part of that. And like, for sure she is, yeah, you know, I think that this whole situation was, like, you had, like, a bad, you know what? I mean, like, it was a blip, yeah? So it shouldn't define you, you know, like, and it sounds kind of to like, minimize it, but it's almost like in your years of existing, there's like three years that maybe your shit was bad, yeah, after. All those years of you being so you know, a good person who's productive and doing things, you know, so it shouldn't be the only thing that defines you. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:20:06

yeah. It's funny to look at it like that, because I definitely like all or nothing. It in a lot of ways, and a lot of the rhetoric around like, recovery rooms and all that is definitely like all or nothing. So like, so what I mean by that is like, I see it like, Okay, I was using, even if it wasn't every day, like I was using drugs for pretty much most of, like, my adult life, or like, you know, maybe mainly from like, I guess 21 to like was, uh, 29 or 30 or whatever, um. So it's like, Oh, my God. Like, almost 10 years or whatever, like, a decade of using, where I was just, like, this piece of shit. But yeah, the truth is that it wasn't like that exactly, you know, it wasn't this, like, all or nothing, like that that, yeah, it got, it sank into getting worse and worse and, like, it was probably, like, a sort of on the edge being a problem, or, like, whatever kind of, I don't know exactly I describe it, for like, a little while, and then, yeah, you're probably right that it was, like, really, three years of it being like this, just bad. And then, yeah, coming back. But yeah, I know that. That the thing though, about that is, like, you know, it takes, uh, what do they say it takes? Like, it takes such a it can take like, years to build trust, or whatever, like, so many moments, and then it can take like, 10 seconds to destroy it, right? So that's the kind of the problem is, like, you know, I don't know. I feel like I have, I have felt like I'm having this uphill battle that I'm having, like, proved myself like a lot, and then I tried to, for the most part, like, Be okay with that and accept that, because of how much I put a lot of people through. But then sometimes I'm just like, Alright, come on. It's been, like, years, literally years of me being, like, on top of my shit and like, just improving, like, day after day that. Like, do you have to, like, not trust me about like, this or this and that and that, that I'm referring to, like things that, yeah, for sure, with Hannah, my partner, but then, but a lot more, like, maybe, like, with, like, my family and stuff, you know, and I don't know, especially with my sister, that's, like, a very rough like thing right now that I want to make better very badly,

Siobhan: 1:22:12

yeah, and it is. And I think sometimes, too, that part sucks for people that have gone through stuff like you have, yeah, it's like, okay, what point do I get to have the benefit of the doubt back? Right, right? And it's like people almost like, like, lord it over you, in a way, or like, it's like they're, it's like they're a little bit of control in kind of that relationship. Yeah, they lost so much of it, yeah. But it's also kind of not fair, like that. You have to, like, I mean, it, I go both ways on the argument, because, like, as a person that, like, you know, not not you specifically, but like, having an addict in my life that, like, has done fucked up shit, and you're like, Yeah, okay, yeah. Now you're sober. Now I'm supposed to just get over it, because you said, sorry. Like, there is a little bit of that, like, you know what? I mean, there's a little bit of a resentment, I think, on the person who gets hurt, yeah, like, and that that's their thing, that they have to kind of let go, yeah, and decide, like, all right, if we're gonna do this, then we both have to go in it to it like, knowing and saying, okay, yeah, this stuff happened, but now we're on a new page, and we're gonna keep trying to look forward and not keep pulling all of that back up. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:23:16

yeah. Like, the thing that's like, the most rough for me is, like, like, I said like with my sister, because I think it's just, I really am struggling, like, even to this day, with that, with exactly that issue. And on one hand, I totally understand, like, why she feels some type of way about a lot of things, yeah, and then on the other hand, I'm like, like, having you, like, I feel like I've been going above and beyond, to try to, like, fix our relationship, and be like, on point, and I like, and fine with, you know, she's she can be super flaky with me. And like, also, in a lot of ways, I'll sometimes be, like, kind of selfish in what she's about, which, you know, that's whatever, but I just, I'm, like, that's fine. I'm just gonna accept exactly how she is, and, like, not complain whatsoever, right? I'm not perfect at that, but I have been doing that a lot, but then at the same time, then I think back on it, it's like I have so much guilt around things with her, because she is actually the one that found me the first time I overdosed, right? Which was, like, I know, traumatic as hell for her. And that was, like, I know that was, I guess that was actually, I guess, like, yeah, like, five years ago, something like that. I think, like, five or six. I think my mom, I know, she knows the exact year it was, but I was, like, around that, and I think, I think that so I had, I was visiting family for it was a few, it was a couple weeks after I passed that qualifying exam. That's what it was, because then I visited family for like, Christmas time, yeah? And it was a couple days after Christmas, she found me overdose, like, in this car, wow, with my ex wife, who was all all messed up, like, she wasn't overdosed, but, like, not really coherent, yeah, yeah. So that was horrible. So my sister, like, really. Yeah, yeah. So there's like issues there. And like, I have a lot of like guilt around that I used to I was definitely battling with feeling just like horrible about myself, about that, but I know I've forgiven myself a lot, you know, and yeah, a lot of ways. Like, I know I was just really sick. I know that for like, a lot of the things that happened, but, but still, I mean, that's, that's that's just, like, a really tough one. I just, I think it's super hard, but yeah, it's getting better,

Siobhan: 1:25:26

yeah. And I think time, I think time will eventually do it, and especially if you can kind of keep that grace for her to know, like she's still struggling with it, even though you're, you might not be, for whatever reason she's holding on to it. And I can't imagine finding your brother, like, you know, unresponsive, it's that is scary, and she's probably still really mad that she could have lost you. And she probably has a lot of that, like, and she doesn't know how to get rid of it, almost, yeah, and then if she gets rid of it, what happens if you relapse? And then what happens if so now she put her in that position to get hurt again, and, like, she put herself into that position to get hurt again. So I can, kind of, I could see white, how she would feel that. But I also understand, like, it's frustrating when she can't let go of it, right? You know, like, because it does put in like, a wall between you two, yeah,

Oliver: 1:26:10

yeah. And it's like, I've been, you know, it's hard too, because So, so what also makes it hard is that my whole family is all on the East Coast still, so I'm not, like, spatially or geographically close to them, so they're not seeing me like day to day. And so I came up with a solution for that, which I think was a good one. So I have weekly FaceTime chats with my sister, and separately, weekly FaceTime chats with my brother, and then I call my mom pretty often, and we end up FaceTiming a lot, but with my siblings, I have that scheduled and so and I come through, like, almost every week, I was really, I was actually really torn, because since Hannah and I just did this move that we did, like, I had to, I had to, like, cancel on one of those like sessions, and that, like, really bothered me. Like, I like, take it that seriously, right? But then at the same time, my sister is probably flaked on like, a third to a half of them, and, like, it'll be last minute all the time, and I just have to, like, take that, right, but, like, but that, that's the only So, if I think about it's like, so she's seeing me for the most part, for like, one hour a week, like, seeing me even though it's through a video that's so different than, like, you know, if she in person, like, saw me And how I am, and, like, saw that, like, over and over and over again, so I don't know. So yeah, I'm trying to just give that a lot of grace and, like, Be okay with that. But that's definitely, like, it's definitely been, like, very difficult part of this, like, sobriety thing, for sure. But yeah,

Siobhan: 1:27:34

it's like, dealing with all the consequences of it. Like, yeah, yeah, it sucks, yeah.

Oliver: 1:27:39

And there's still, there's still, like, a lot, there's still more people that like, I need to, I feel like I need to reach out to to make amends, and it's just, and then at the same time it's like, it's hard to like, do that and like, it's I don't want to like, I don't want to do that too much, too fast, even though it's been, like, some time that I've been clean, because there's also been A lot of other things I've needed to rebuild, right but I don't want to do too much of that too fast and just feel like so bad about myself, you know, like rehashing, like, all of these different things. So I've been, I don't know, kind of on this, like, weird struggle of how much is the right amount of, like, fixing relationships versus, like, just doing something good for myself, right thing? Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:28:21

And I wonder too, like, how many of those relationships that you're thinking of, are those people also in their addiction? So is it something that one you want to open the door to, like them, exchanging energy with them, or two, is it anything that they even and I'm so I'm sure there are some people that were sober and or, you know, sober that you have that with. But I wanted to how many of those relationships are drug related versus actual, real relationships? Yeah, yeah. Sure that that has to. It's hard to figure that out, too, if you're not interacting with them, right? So I'm sure that that's also, like, a little bit there. Or I would think,

Oliver: 1:28:58

yeah, no, for sure. Like, there's like, I wanted to, like, fix some relationships with a few people that I Yeah, there's definitely been people I've recognized, like, my whole I thought those people were, like, my best friends, right? And then I realized that everything our relationship was about was just getting high, right? Like, like, and it's so crazy how I only see that in hindsight, you know, like, I thought I was so close with that person that I realized, like, what do they, like, really know about me that, like, you know, what do they really experience with me that wasn't us? Just, like, getting high the whole time, right? And I know I shared stuff with them, but all, like, fucked up that, like, I don't know they don't do they really know me. And it's just that part was like crazy to, like, recognize that there's been a couple people in particular I'm thinking of like, that that, yeah, I just decided, like, I don't think I can actually, like, reach out to them. I don't think I can have them in my life at all unless they got clean and like, we're that way, like, but

Siobhan: 1:29:49

I think that that's an important thing to realize, too, and recognize, and know, like, okay, there are people from my past that are going to be good for me to bring back, and then there are people that are better be kind of left in my past. Yeah. And that's how hard I can imagine how hard that is. I mean, just in my own life and thinking about things like when I kind of, when I walked away from my old life, there was people that, like, has have stayed with me, and there are people that haven't. And at times it's like, Wait, do I want to reach out to those people? And then I'm like, wait, I Why would I reach out to them? Yeah, they're a part of that old life that they weren't really adding value. Then if I can, like, really distance myself from it. It's like those people were part of that life that I was having that I shouldn't have been in, and they probably recognize that too. And like, there was a distance that I don't want to admit, that I probably always knew was there, yeah, right. Like, Yeah. Kind of tripping like, yeah, layers of complications. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:30:46

no, for sure, for sure, yeah, but

Siobhan: 1:30:49

yeah, and you and Hannah are about to go on an epic adventure, which I'm super excited for you. Yeah, I'm super sad for myself. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:30:57

I know. I'm sorry about that. I could, I could see that,

Siobhan: 1:31:00

but I'm super excited to come and meet you guys. You guys are gonna start because you'll be remote for most of your work, for what you what you're tutoring, and then doing your PhD stuff, you can do a lot of that,

Oliver: 1:31:11

yeah, because it's all data science stuff, AI stuff, like, I don't I theoretically should be able to do all the rest that I need to do of the PhD stuff, like remotely. And I talked to the people that run, like, not the professors, but the people that kind of like work, like the staff people for the department, yeah, exactly. And they told me, like, there would be no problem, actually, right? Like me being remote, but yeah,

Siobhan: 1:31:32

and Hannah works remote, so you guys are gonna start doing the camper van life. Uh huh,

Oliver: 1:31:36

yeah. So we have our big truck, and then we got our slide like, cab over, slide in camper. So, yeah, so we have our whole little rig. And yeah, we're about to just be nomadic for, I at least, probably a year, if not two years. And I don't know, I kind of feel like we're going to end up doing a lot out of this. And yeah, but we're about to be, like, fully nomadic, which is wild,

Siobhan: 1:31:56

yeah. And you guys will be sharing that journey kind of coming up too, in the next couple weeks, you'll start to share that stuff, so people can kind of follow you guys and see what it's like, and see where you're going and kind of what you're doing. Yeah,

Oliver: 1:32:09

we actually, on the way over here, we're thinking about, like, we've been thinking about names for that, like branding or whatever. Like, yeah, we really want to make YouTube videos, and we've been filming stuff for that. But I'm thinking that actually, what Hannah, I had this idea, and then she kind of, like, did an iteration of it that I like a lot better, but we were thinking, if it's not taken something like more to explore, and something like that, yeah, kind of rhymes, and then, you know, it's just about, there's more like world out there to explore. And I don't know, because we're, I don't even know all the places we're gonna end up going, but it's always gonna be more to explore. So, yeah,

Siobhan: 1:32:40

I love it, all right. Well, well, I think we'll wrap this up, because I know you have to get to work and you have to go hang out with your beautiful girlfriend, who I hope will meet her soon on here we she and I actually sat down one day with another friend, but the audio was terrible because there was three of us and only two mics. Oh yeah, giggly little schoolgirl, so, but we'll introduce Hannah to the ducking world and soon, yeah, that'd

Oliver: 1:33:03

be awesome.

Siobhan: 1:33:04

I know she would love that, yeah. And thank you so much for sharing your story. Yeah, thank you. Like, it's really is inspiring. And, like, for someone that's out there struggling, like, they know too, like, all right, this kid did it, I can do it,

Oliver: 1:33:15

yeah, I really hope so that, like, that really is, like, a huge part of that, that actually exactly, I mean, yeah, I should have said that, but that's exactly a reason that I really feel like it's important, it's actually the right thing to do, to, like, authentically, like, share these kind of things that, yeah, I mean, otherwise, like, people just feel like they're the only ones in the world, like going through this, right? In actuality, it's like there's such a common humanity, you know? Yeah.

Siobhan: 1:33:37

And I think if we can get the shame away from it, we can really help a lot more people. Yeah, absolutely All right. Well, thank you, Holly, thank you all for listening, and I hope you can go find some joy for yourself today. I love you. You.