Ducking Realitea

Intentions, Justice & Self-Care with Lee

• Siobhan • Episode 37

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In this thought-provoking and deeply personal episode, Siobhan and Lee dive into the power of understanding intentions behind actions, sparked by a heated debate Siobhan had at a bar—yes, even about something as extreme as becoming a Nazi. Lee emphasizes the importance of having difficult conversations to foster growth and deeper understanding, even when emotions run high.

The conversation takes a personal turn as Lee opens up about her own struggles, including a traumatic break-in and the loss of a close friend, and how therapy and exercise have become vital tools in managing anxiety and depression. Together, they explore the challenge of balancing work, personal life, and mental health, while also finding ways to reclaim joy and creativity.

Siobhan shares her admiration for Lee’s vibrant, artistic spirit, encouraging her to return to burlesque and creative expression. They also discuss Siobhan’s experience with the judicial system, her time in the courtroom, and why she’s fascinated by the process of justice and impartiality.

Of course, it wouldn’t be a Ducking Realitea episode without some unexpected turns—like the importance of bidets and bathroom conveniences, because self-care takes many forms! Plus, Lee gives us a glimpse into her Etsy jewelry business, “Lee Evil Design,” and her plans to expand.

It’s a mix of deep, raw truths and lighthearted moments—because life is both. Press play and join the conversation. 🎙️✨

Siobhan:

All right. So welcome, all right. Y'all this week on this episode of Ducking reality, I'm joined with my friend Lee Williams, hello, hi. I'm excited for this because we've been talking about it for a while. It's true we have and so I know you from the bar scene. I think maybe we met at 13, or did we meet? That's like, Stevie,

Lee:

I got it's really hard to say, yeah, it was so long ago. I don't know.

Siobhan:

It's been a few years, yeah, but then I just picked you up because and then I wanted to tell you the story of what just happened to me. And I was like, wait, I'm gonna wait till we get some microphones. Okay, so I wanna, we're gonna get into your story. But so I just had this happen. I was just at 13, and I was coming to pick you up. So I grabbed lunch and had a beer and said hi, and then I ended up talking to this guy, and we were talking about whether or not intention behind something matters, right? And so he was saying, like, no one has to give a Nazi a platform to why they became a Nazi. It doesn't matter that how they became a Nazi. It just matters that they're a Nazi. And I was saying, no, no, why they became a Nazi does actually matter, like, the intention behind it. And he was like, if you're giving them a platform, you're normalizing it. And and I was like, no, no. Like, I'm not saying whether or not they became a Nazi is good or bad. Like, obviously, personally, it's always bad. But I do want to understand why they became a Nazi, so I can help other people not become Nazis. Yeah. So, like, I need to know why that person decided to become a Nazi. Or, like, did they realize they were becoming a Nazi? Or I'm like, so intention does matter. It does Yeah. And he was like, it doesn't. Intention never matters. It only matters who they are. My I was like, No. Like, I think you're I'm like, so if you never understand how someone does something wrong. How do you ever teach someone not to right? And then he just kept talking over me, and every time I would be like, like, he was like, well, murder is never right. And I was like, No, that's not true. Because, like, why did you murder someone? Did it become down, become between you and I so, like, you murdered me because I would have murdered you. Like, then that intention does matter, right? He's like, okay, so fine, you got one good one, like, rape. Just rape ever like, and he was getting really like mad, and I was very common. I'm like, No, there's no ever good reason for rape. Like, there just isn't. I mean, can I logically tell you why some people think it's okay to rape? I can. Actually, I'm not going to but, and then I was saying, like, the universe doesn't people don't evolve and move forward without difficult conversations. Exactly. You need a difficult conversation in order to help someone grow, to help them see, like, Hey, I was taught a bunch of racist shit, but I was wrong. And like, this is how I get there. I'm like, you don't have that without understanding someone's intention, without understanding why. And he was like, you're wrong and you're just trying to platform people, but every time I went to make a point, he would just start talking over me, and then he's like, you're giving me anecdotal information. I'm giving you statistics, is he? And I was like, so wait, what statistic Did you just give me exactly? And he's like, Well, you're just giving me anecdotal. And I was like, and he's like, right? You just said anecdotal. And I said, I've never said the word anecdotal. You're distilling what I'm down saying to something that's anecdotal, I said, but I'm not telling you what you're saying is wrong or what you're saying is right. I'm just saying this is what I think. I think someone's intention is important. Do I do? I think it always matters, or what the end result is, like, is right or wrong because of their intention? No, I'm not putting any value on it, right? I'm asking you, like, I'm saying, like, I think it does matter. Yes. And he's like, you're wrong and you're the problem, and And so finally, I was just like, all right, dude, you just keep talking over me. And he was like, I go, so nothing I say matters, and you're not a person I want to talk to you because now you're telling me that what I'm saying is just anecdotal, but you have statistics. He's like, Well, face value, I don't know you. I don't know what you do or don't know. And I was like, right, but I don't know what you do and do not know. You haven't asked me what I do not know, and you don't haven't asked me for anything. Because, well, if you want to pull up a statistics, I'd like you to see it. Let's go, go ahead. And I was like, Yeah, I'm not going to do your homework for you. But again, you're just assuming that because I disagree with you, that I am wrong, and you're trying to diminish what I'm saying by calling it anecdotal and saying you have statistics face value. I don't know you. I don't know if you have a statistics back up anything you're saying, but you're confident enough to tell me that I don't know shit and you do know better. And is that because you're just an older, white guy? Yeah, I go, and I just look at him, and was like, because I'm like, because he won't let me finish a sentence or a thought without talking over me. Was just fucking rude, yeah, and so, like, I kind of buttoned it up and was like, Yeah, I'm done talking to you. And as I was leaving, Chris was like, yeah. I'm like, Nah, I'm just sick of fucking dudes telling me I'm wrong because I'm a woman. Yeah. He's like, that dude, he's always so nice to me. And I looked at him and I was like, he's like, Well, I'm here because you're a dude. And I was like, I'm just talking to dudes being like, well, you don't know what you're talking about. Even though they don't know anything. Don't know anything about me. Yeah, they don't know anything. I'm like, This dude is so confident in trying to tell me that I'm wrong, and trying to tell me anything I say is anecdotal, while he has statistics,

Lee:

but see, he's also telling you that you're a part of the problem. Is so ironic, because it's that kind of attitude and. That prevents us from moving forward and divides us, you know, especially like today in this political climate, like the reason we are where we are is because of intolerance, right?

Siobhan:

Well, he was telling me that I'm giving intolerance a platform which makes the tolerance acceptable. And I was like, that's not what I said at all. It's

Lee:

no, in fact, it's just the opposite. And

Siobhan:

I was like, so you think the world just has become he's like, Well, it's safe for people to be gay now in small towns, because they've seen the city say that it's okay. And I'm like, No, they've had difficult conversations, and that's moved the Yeah, society forward. So if you just

Lee:

shut somebody down and you're not willing to listen to them, then you, in fact, are part of the problem, right?

Siobhan:

So he's actively shutting me down. And I was like, no. So like, if you grew up in a silo, and you grew up only knowing, like, one way to, like, get out of that place, and then, as you're gonna talk about that show later, and I'm like, and so like you don't understand that what you taught was wrong, right? No one ever has a hard conversation about how like you being taught like someone that looks different or sleeps with someone different than you do is wrong. How do you know that it's wrong, right? I'm like, so you don't want to give anyone a platform that you disagree with, because then you think that's normalizing it, like, but how do those people then learn that they were wrong if no one ever talks about it? Yeah, and he's like, so you think a Nazi is just okay? And I'm like, that's not what I said at all. I'm like, I've never put a judgment on a Nazi, like, and someone else is like, well, there's different levels of Nazi. And he's like, Oh, that's what you're going what you're gonna say you're and I was like, but there is just, like, there's different levels of racism, yeah. Like, he was like, Have you ever seen someone who, like, will say racist shit, actually interact with someone that's of a different race and they treat that person with like, love and respect, or like not even love, but like, courtesy and like, they're kind to them, and they're like, Oh, I like that one. Like, I'm not saying it's right, but like, that's how you get someone to grow and then learn. Like, Oh, guess what? All the other people that look like that good one are also good ones. Yeah. Like, if you've never exposed someone to that, and you never teach them, or you never, like, let them get the room to make mistakes.

Lee:

Yeah, well, and the easiest thing to do, the knee jerk reaction to being human, is to, you know, black and white everything. Instead of seeing all the shades in between, you're just saying, This is good, this is bad. It's easier, right, to compartmentalize that way, and it requires less thought, oh, yeah, and less emotional, you know,

Unknown:

work or

Siobhan:

intelligence or intelligence, yeah, like, and I was like, I always want to understand how someone else thinks, because, like, I can't understand hating someone for not knowing them, right? Like, I mean, I don't even really hate the people I do know that I probably should. But, like, but like, I have never understood hating someone that you don't know for, like, the color of the skin or who they date, or, like, I don't know what they're into. Like, yeah, I just that is so far from the way I think so. Like, I want to understand how someone gets like that I want to understand, like, how do you not see someone's humanity almost exactly, like, and so, yeah, I want to understand that. I'm not saying that it affects whether or not I think their position is right or wrong. Like, I just want to understand it so I can understand another human being. Yeah, like, I'm not trying to judge with if they got to that place and they're right or wrong, or if it's moral or immoral, I want to understand why they think they the way they think. Yeah, and then maybe I can help CELT teach them some new way to think, or maybe they'll teach me a new way to think like and maybe their way is different and right in some way that I haven't noticed before, or maybe they're just batshit crazy.

Lee:

Well, yeah, well, but it also helps with your ability to have compassion for your fellow human right, you know, that's true. Understanding is a part of that, yeah, yeah,

Siobhan:

yeah, yeah. I was so annoyed, though, yeah. So like,

Lee:

his, his way of thinking is very polarizing, right?

Siobhan:

Like, and he was just like, oh, you know, like, when he was like, people can be gay in small towns now because society put pressure on other people to know that it's okay. And I was like, Wow, you are, like, I whitewashing the whole world that now you think it's just okay to be gay everywhere. Like, it's still not okay to be and it should be, but it's still not okay to be gained. It's not like it's easy now and really snow like, he just was like, oh, everything is better. And like, yeah, no. People aren't racist now because they see in society that you shouldn't be. And I was like, No, that's where do you live?

Lee:

Yeah. Well. That is, that's an incredible perspective that's not based on reality whatsoever. Well, it must be nice to be in his world. You know,

Siobhan:

I wanted to be like, your privilege is showing bro, oh my god. But I was like, I just gotta go, yeah. Wow. So men are something that we have talked about a lot, so I felt it was kind of fitting that I was just like, in this conversation, like, and I and then when he, like, threw, like, anytime a dude throws rape in my face, it's like, yeah, I wanted to be like, you have, you have no you can't. You are only a perpetrator of that. You cannot speak and like, then part of me just to be like, the kind of rebellious, like, I'm gonna rock your world anyways. Wanted to be like, Well, yeah, I can't see that. Like, oh, I can find an excuse for it. I can't, I won't, and I didn't, but part of me just to be like, the adversary of it wanted to be like, no, no. So you're just because I just proved you wrong on a murder you want to try to tell me, like, oh, well, here's something you can't find, like, you can't fight me on this one. I'm gonna be and it's also because it holds a different weight when a man says it to a woman, like, right, exactly. And then I was just like, oh. And in my brain, I was like, Oh, if Lee was here, we'd be ganging up on this deal. Oh, yeah, all right, true, but we'll get into all of that. So Lee, tell us a little bit of your origins story. Oh, boy, I know some of it, but I don't know all of it. Oh,

Lee:

well, like, how far back do you want me to go?

Siobhan:

I actually do not know where you're from originally,

Lee:

well, so my dad was Navy, so we moved around quite a lot, and that is why I hate moving and I totally have PTSD around it. I like to establish roots and friendships and keep that going for as long as possible. But when my parents split, when I was, I don't know, fairly young, we ended up moving into my grandparents who lived in Medina, Washington, which is, like, just across from Seattle, okay, and yeah, so that's where I spent the formative years of my teenage Dum and then came out to go to Cal Berkeley, and just never went back? Nice. Where'd you go to Cal Berkeley for psychology, which, you know, I'm a bartender,

Siobhan:

yeah? So you're the best kind of psychology, yeah,

Lee:

yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's kind of how I came to be here.

Siobhan:

How long have you been in the bay? Oh, my God, most

Lee:

of my life now, nice. Yeah, I don't want to admit to the years. Nothing but

Siobhan:

a number, baby.

Lee:

It's been a minute. Let's just put it that way, yeah,

Siobhan:

but you're like, kind of into the punk scene too, right?

Lee:

Yeah, I would say or post punk, post punk, yeah, is my jam, but I also love industrial. So

Siobhan:

wait, what makes post punk, post punk and not punk? I'm not up on my uh, punkness. Well,

Lee:

I mean, it's definitely a part of the punk movement, but it happened a little bit later on, and it You mean, I'm, look, I'm not a music expert, but the bands that you can sort of put in that range is like early cure and, you know, music that's kind of like that, I would say it's a little more melodic, but still has that edginess to it that just really appeals to me. But again, I also love industrial. So I love loud and noise and and I do love, like a lot of the OG punk bands as well. Yeah,

Siobhan:

yeah, because any then you've been a bartender for almost a whole timer. So

Lee:

yeah, funny enough. As soon as I turned 21 I started bartending at a little place in Berkeley that no longer exists, but it was like a live music venue spot. And then I did that for about a year, maybe a little under a year, and then I just switched to, I mean, it's difficult to work late nights when you're in college. So I switched to other gigs, like Re. Tell and whatever else to get me through my college years. But, you know, not too long after I decided to, you know, go back into bartending again, because it was more lucrative than, you know, all the things I had been doing, although I did have a stint as a paralegal, and that was interesting, but very stressful. Oh, I'm sure, yeah. So yeah, the day that I got laid off was one of the happiest days of my life.

Siobhan:

Never went back. Yeah, because I'm sure it's interesting, it's good money, but it's also like, you know, you're affecting what happens with people's lives in a very, like definitive way.

Lee:

Yeah, and you know, you also have to deal with attorneys, which can be extremely difficult depending on the personalities. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Siobhan:

I know. I'm working with a boss, one of my bosses right now. He's super kind and wonderful and generous, but he has a streak sometimes where he can kind of get little hostile. And like, the other day, he like, caught my eye on something, and like, I just walked in, and he starts screaming at me, and he's so angry. He's like, didn't you just see what happened? And I was like, what I didn't I goes like, what? Like? And I thought, like, something egregious had just happened. And then he's like, do you even hear that music? And I was like, Oh, this is what you're that mad about, like, and as he's, like, talking to me, and I can feel his hostility, like my whole body was in like a, like, panic attack, like my, you know, nervous system was in fight or flight, like I could feel myself like wanting to, like, cry or run away. And I was like, my brain was like, wait, wait, no. Like, this is nothing to do with you. Like, hold on. Like, what is happening? And I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, and someone was like, and I was like, yeah. Like, I know that he has that. Like, it's kind of like exposure to, like, therapy. For me, he's the one thing that I do not want to be around, like, when he gets like that almost all the time, I'm, like, joyous to be around him, but like, when something makes him so mad, I get, like, scared, like I just

Lee:

can, yeah, I had quite a few of those types of attorneys that I worked with. I got really good at dealing with them, but, you know, didn't mean I enjoyed it.

Siobhan:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I saw someone else, like, interact with him in the state, like, and they were just like, they laughed it off. And I was like, that's how I want to get like,

Lee:

yeah, you have to desensitize yourself to a personality like that if you have to deal with them on the daily,

Siobhan:

right? Yeah, because it's like, your triggers aren't your fault, but how you respond to them are, yeah, and like, I it made me think of you in the conversations we've had, because we've both been like, through so many things that cause so many reactions that we don't want to have. Yes, you know, like, we're like, those things that happen to us are not our fault, but like, how we're now responding to them are, is, yes, exactly. And, oh, it's a hard one, yeah, that is, I think that's like one of the hardest things in life, yeah, and I feel like you're still kind of coming fresh off of that in some ways, yes, definitely, yeah. You want to tell us about it. I know we talked about talking about it, but I now it feels like a little more real, and I feel like it has to be really hard for you to talk about,

Lee:

yeah, so yes, the past few years have really been very challenging. A lot of friends who have passed a lot of upheaval in my own personal life. Haven't always dealt with the trauma in the best way, but what I'm learning to accept about myself is I dealt with it in the best way possible at the time.

Siobhan:

Oh, amen to that. Yeah, yeah.

Lee:

Because previously, I could be very, very critical of myself and feel very down or let down. You know, I learned all these tools to work with difficult situations. Why couldn't I implement them at the time that this happened. But, you know, it's like, it's not like climbing a ladder. It's more like taking a few steps back and then pushing forward just that one step more each time. Yeah, you know, you just learn how to weather things a little little better, maybe next time, not you know you're not, you're not, maybe where you want to be, but it's more about getting there, oh yeah, than being there, yeah, yeah. And, and then I think of what you're. Alluding to also is I had a very traumatic experience. Gosh, it was a body, what, year and a half ago now, I think, yeah, where I started noticing weird things in my house. I would come home and, you know, things would be moved around in my bedroom. And at first I just sort of blamed it on the cat. And then one day I came home and I had a hairless cat at the time, chicken. He's the most amazing cat ever, but he was sunburned, and I never let him out, and I couldn't figure out how he got outside, if he got outside, right? I had all the windows shaded so he wouldn't get sunburned, because he loves to, you know, used to love to lie in the sunshine.

Siobhan:

I've never thought about a fact that a hairless cat could get a sunburn. Oh,

Lee:

yeah, that's why you have to be very careful with them, and you can't put sunblock on them, because they clean themselves. And that's toxic, right, you know? So that's

Siobhan:

just, like, one of those things that's, like, super obvious after you said it, but it would have never crossed my mind.

Lee:

Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing, and they love heat, so they will lie in the sun, right? But you can get, for anybody out there who has a hairless you can get a UV blocking screen, okay, that you can put on the outside of your windows so they can still get the warmth right, without getting the harmful rays. Oh, that's an important thing to know. Yeah, that's probably good for people too. Well, yeah, someone that's

Siobhan:

had skin cancer a bunch, oh, that's awful. Well, they mostly just cut it out, as long as you catch it early, yeah, yeah, get your skin checks. People, yes,

Lee:

yes, definitely. Sorry. Yeah, but, but, in fact, I found one of the screens on the ground when I walked in and I'm on this Well, I was on the second floor of my house, so I thought, God, did the wind like pick it up? Maybe it fell off naturally, right? Was so confused by it, because it was perfectly square, the work rectangular, the way it was when I installed it, but just laying on the ground. So it wasn't too long after that that I came home, I think around 10 from work. I sat downstairs, ate dinner, watched TV, probably till around one, two in the morning, and then dragged my weary ass up to bed and opened my door, and there was a man in my bed, like in the covers, looking at me, someone I had never, ever seen before, right? And I just froze. And you know, when you're you never know how you're gonna react right until you're in a situation. And I just I did. I did what I I guess people are told to do when a bear is in front of you. I just puffed myself up as big as I could and just started shouting like, Who the fuck are you? How did you get in here? What the fuck you know? Get the fuck out of my house. And he was like, Can I and he was like, Oh, God, I still remember this. And he gives me chills. He had this really weird, like, feminine voice saying, Can I just talk to you? Can we just talk. It was so strange. And I kept saying, No, I don't want to hear anything that you have to say. And then finally, I thought about it, and I was like, no, actually, how did you how did you find me? Right? Because my house is behind a house, right? You don't see it from the street. I

Siobhan:

drive by too many times. I have to go around the block when I come to your house, yeah, drive right by it because I it's you, I have to, like, look down the driveway to see that it's even there,

Lee:

yeah, yeah, you don't see it from the streets. So how did he find me? And he said, You showed me, yeah, so he obviously had been following me, and at that point, I was like, get the fuck out of my house. Just get the fuck out of my house right now. And he said, okay, okay. And then he waited for me to go in front of him. And I said, No, no, no, you're in front of me. You get in front of me right fucking now. I was just terrified that he was gonna pull weapon out. Or, you know, I didn't have anything on me except for my anger, which I was using like a shield, you know. And of course, I think I scared him enough, and I was also screaming as loudly as I could so that my roommate, who was dead asleep next door to me. Could get up and come out and maybe help with the situation. No, he slept through the whole fucking thing, but it didn't matter. I got him downstairs, out the door, out the gate, went running back upstairs, screamed for my roommate, banged on his door. He came out. We called the police. Yeah, they came. Took description, took my bedding, which, you know, the thought of what ever was happening there. And it dawned on me when I was talking to them, Oh, my God, all the things that were being moved to my house. And then I looked at the window, and the screen had been cut completely out of it, yeah, and it was open. And then it all clicked. And there was a night, like, a week and a half before that, where I was coming home, and there's a little carport where, you know, we have a dedicated parking spot, and it's very dark, and I heard laughing coming from inside of it, like this really low, like, Like, evil laugh. And I ran to the gate and ran inside the house and told my roommate about it, and he came out with a flashlight and looked, and there was nobody in there. But I am convinced, you know, right, that it was this guy fucking with me, and who knows how long he had been following me home. Did

Siobhan:

you ever figure out how he might have picked you up, or who, like, where he found you from, or how where he might have been following you from. I mean,

Lee:

I'm assuming the local bar that I like to hang out with after work, the he followed me home from that I later came to find out that there were several women that he had been doing that to in the area. Wow. Once I posted my story, a bunch of people came forward and said that something very similar had happened to them, and the police weren't great about follow ups I had to call. Finally found out that they had apprehended him, um, set a court date and let him go.

Siobhan:

So were you like, I guess, did they, like, ask about you. Like, did you have to press charges? Did you have to, like, how does that I and I don't know even how much you know, like, did you have to, like, go to court for this, or, like, is it? No, like, it's he got charged with breaking and entering, and then they just let him go, and then that's it. It's over. Yeah,

Lee:

so unfortunately, like, that's kind of how it is in our country. You know, you kind of have to murder somebody before you know you're pro proclivities are considered serious. I, you know, look, I listen to a lot of true crime, and I see the description of his behavior as ramping up, right, and that is very concerning to me that he's going to keep getting caught, keep being let go, and then he's eventually going to harm somebody right physically. And, you know, I kept trying to say that to the police, but they, you know, yeah,

Siobhan:

well, they think they know everything better than you do, because they deal with that stuff all the time, even though they don't actually do anything. Yeah? Another, well, because our system is set up for them not to really be able to do anything anymore,

Lee:

yeah? Like,

Siobhan:

if they just, they do. You know this guy's name, I'm not asking you to share like, like, don't

Lee:

I? Like, they didn't release any of his information. They They did say that he had been in prison and he had just gotten out, like, I'm assuming, on good behavior or whatever, you know, right? But this keeps happening

Siobhan:

so like, you're not allowed to know his name, but he was in your house. Oh yeah,

Lee:

yeah, oh yeah. And, and who knows what he took or what he looked at, what he did. I mean, I just, yeah, the whole thing was just so upsetting. I mean, my I'm a problem solver, so as soon as that happened, I got a ring camera. I have locks on all my windows, and I have a. I guess dog now, you know, like a lot of my friends said, Oh, my God, I would have moved. But no, what am I that's not going to change anything that could happen wherever you

Siobhan:

go, right? And if you're a person that likes to you don't like to move, and you like to put down roots, and like, you're not going to let this one person now take away your sanctuary, right? You're gonna reinforce it and be like, No, I'm gonna stand my ground. Like, this is my place. Like, exactly, yeah, I'm not gonna give the up everything I've built, because you like, violated me. Yeah? I like, feel like I'm struggling on that word, but it is a violation. Like, well, yeah,

Lee:

and they found a lot of his DNA all over my sheets. And I am, I just don't want to know, like, how many times had he been been in my bed, and then I came home and got in my bed, you know,

Siobhan:

yeah, how do you how did you because I don't know if I could do what you like, I don't know if I could stay, you know, like, and I understand where you it kind of goes back to our intention thing. I understand you staying and I, part of me thinks I would, and part of me thinks I don't know if I could, you know, it's like that I don't ever want to judge myself. It kind of goes back to what you already just said. It's like, you don't want to judge for something you've never been through. Like, I'd like to think I know how I'll react to things, but like, I honestly no, I don't,

Lee:

yeah, well, I was really glad that I had that reaction. I also was very grateful that it worked right the first night. Well, really, by the time the police had stopped coming by, it was already the next day, and then the then that evening, I know I grabbed my cat and I stayed at a friend's place, right? But after that, I wanted to, I fiercely wanted to reclaim my space, because nobody is going to intimidate me out of my sanctuary, my home, that I'm not I'm not going to allow anybody to do that. Nobody has that kind of power over me. So reclaiming it was my number one goal, right? And and and improving, you know, security and getting a big old dog, right?

Siobhan:

Did you do anything to, like, cleanse a space, or, like, take that back? Or, like, oh, yeah, of course, yes. And you said, Did you you moved rooms? Was that like a well, that's or did that just happen stands later.

Lee:

That happened. That's happening more recently. I'm, I'm in the process of just trying to rent out the whole upstairs of my house, not because of that in particular, but it just makes more sense. It's more rooms, you know, get somebody to live up there and I'll just go to the room downstairs. Yeah, that way we won't bother each other. Oh,

Siobhan:

yeah, that's just the perils of having her me, yeah,

Lee:

yeah. You know. I mean, honestly, I at this point in my life, I wish I didn't have to. But right here we are in the Bay Area, so it is here. What are you gonna do? Yeah,

Siobhan:

yeah. You work a million hours like I do, yeah, yeah. I was saying to somebody the other day they called me, and they were like, you know, you haven't really been around much. And I was like, Yeah, I know. I work a lot. And they're like, you said you were gonna call the other day. And I was like, Yeah, I know. And then I was at work for 12 and a half hours, like, not gonna call you at midnight when I get out of work. Like, I walked in to work at 1130 in the morning and thought I was leaving at five, and I didn't leave until 1130 at night. And they were like, oh, but you didn't have a chance to call me. And I'm like, I barely had a chance to pee, right? Yeah? Like, No, I didn't. And they're like, Oh, I can't believe that. Like, okay, why would I lie to you? Like, I worked for 12 and a half hours in a cafe, in talking to people all day long, like, yeah, I didn't. And there was like, Oh, I don't know if that's true. Okay, then I'm not your friend. People

Lee:

don't unders. They don't understand if they're not in the industry, like how just completely soul sucking it can be, right? And exhausting, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan:

Like you were going through all of that stuff, and while you were going through all of that, you were showing up at your job every day, yeah. And you were pouring drinks for people every day who were telling you all of their shit about their day and how bad it was, and they wanted all of your attention and all of your time, and they wanted you to feel bad for them everything they were dealing with

Lee:

Exactly. Oh, yeah. And then, while all of this was happening, my cat ended up having a heart attack and dying suddenly. And, yeah, it just, it was a lot. And then, you know, friends dying, and I tell you, Well, you know, pretty much I like to say. 2020. Started. It's just been a shit show ever since for everyone, yeah, yeah, but it just, it just feels like, God, can we catch a break? Can there be an easy year? And I guess the answer is no, because, well, akuta took over office.

Siobhan:

I, you know, I kept forgetting yesterday, because I worked all day. So like, all day I was on my computer doing stuff, and then last night I was working in a cafe, so, like, and I actually worked at the cafe all day, just on my computer doing work stuff. So I didn't watch the news, and I kind of just forgot it was a holiday. You know, when you work in our industry, there's not really holidays or days of the week. There's like, am I work or am I not like that? Yeah, yeah. And so I just kept forgetting a couple people like, well, you know, today, and I was just like, I know it's a Monday, and they're like, would look at me, and I'd like, and then they'd be like, the inauguration. I like, oh yeah, I forgot. Can

Lee:

you believe the audacity of that motherfucker I on that holiday? Oh,

Siobhan:

well. I mean, I don't think he chooses it right. Like, it's the same. I don't know about that, but, yeah, I don't know. I didn't look into that distasteful to me. Well, I also kind of felt like it was like the universe giving us a nod that maybe it won't be that bad. Oh god. Well, that's

Lee:

like a silver like, Yeah,

Siobhan:

always like, cautious, optimistic, like, I'm gonna go for the optimism. If I can even see a, if I can see, like, a glimmer of something, I'm gonna lean towards that and just hope I know the bad shit could happen. I know, like, I mean, I did see something about Elon Musk doing the did you see that? I mean, I like, in my brain, like, part of my brain was like, maybe that's AI, like, maybe that's not real. Like, he obviously did not throw a Nazi salute up during a presidential, a US presidential inauguration like that could, like, right? And I've seen it now too many places to think it really is fake. It probably did happen. But I also haven't, like, fact checked it, because I just can't believe that's where we would

Lee:

be. It's just nauseating. All of it really

Siobhan:

can't be. Like my brain just is kind of like your brain, like these little things that happen, but you're like, No, it can't be anything terrible because, like, nothing terrible is really going to happen like that. Like, it's just so far from your perspective or your I don't, yeah, imagination that it would like that that

Lee:

actually is happening, yeah? Yeah. There was a little like tickle in the back of my brain during all of that, like, this is weird, yeah, but, you

Siobhan:

know, yeah, but it's so far from like, what has ever happened to you, that it doesn't feel like that could be something that's gonna happen, right, right? Like, I was talking to this with someone like, when I finally kind of not go over my anxiety, because I still very much have it, but like, learn to deal with my anxiety more is like, I would worry about all this shit, and my brain would go down these crazy fucking rabbit holes of like, this is all the worst stuff that could happen, and then, like, something else completely would happen. And it was like, not anything that I had thought through, right? So then I'm like, I'm wasting all this time worrying about stuff that is not the stuff that actually happens. It's always something I never thought about that happens. Yeah? So, like, maybe, if I just don't worry about it and know, like, something could happen. Like, every time I start to think, like, what's gonna I'm like, no, no, I don't know that's gonna happen. Yeah? Like, it's almost like that, like, it's like, plausible deniability in some way, right? Where it's just like, I'm like, All right, I'm not gonna think about the bad stuff. I'm only gonna focus on the good stuff with, like, an understanding bad shit. It's gonna come up and happen. And that's,

Lee:

that's a healthy perspective. I feel, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan:

Is that kind of where you operate from now? Or have you always operated with that? Or, like, was that kind of incident a catalyst for you in a different way.

Lee:

Uh, so I seem to go through these sort of like peaks and valleys with my mental health, and I can so for the past three homes that I've lived in, I faced owner move in evictions, okay? And that's it's just rampant in the Bay Area. It's a way that landlords can displace their tenants without, you know, much of a fight, a battle, and most of the time they're not actually moving in. And it's really up to you to prove it. If you want to take them to court and you want to go that extra mile, you. So it it's up to you to prove it, then you can get some compensation. But God, who has the time or energy, and if you're renting, you don't have the money, right?

Siobhan:

Because then you have to hire a lawyer to do all that. Yeah, it's soon,

Lee:

you know? It just happens over and over and over again, and by the third one, I had PTSD about it, and I felt my cortisol levels through the roof. I was always in fight or flight. I couldn't seem to calm it down. It took a long time and some therapy to get there, and I have the tools now, because of all of that right to deal with the day to day, but when something big happens, like that guy breaking in, I'm definitely going to spiral out for a While just my anxiety and my ability to focus on, I can only imagine simple tasks, is going to be really affected. And, you know, but like I said, I feel like every time I'm functioning just a little better than I did when the last bombshell hit. So that's progress, right? But, yeah, it's it's hard, like I I have a lot of anxiety, and I deal with depression as well, and it runs in my family. We all battle it, but I happen to be the only one that has therapy for it.

Siobhan:

Oh, my God. Does that make you feel like a superhero some days? Because it does for me. Yeah,

Lee:

it's like, I don't know how you can live in this world without it. You know, I'm a huge proponent of their course, when I just don't understand the stigma against it, it makes no sense. Yeah?

Siobhan:

Me, yeah. I remember as a kid, even, like, when I was like, because I've dealt with depression and anxiety since I was young, like, yeah, you know, like mental health issues running my family, and addiction runs in my family, and I've been an addict and dealt with mental health stuff since I was a kid. I remember when I was like, Really, when I was in high school, and my anxiety and depression kind of got bad because I was also a sick kid. So like, I've dealt with chronic illness and stuff like that. So I remember saying, like, I think I need help. And my mother was like, you just want to go to therapists to blame everything on me. Well, see, and like, that was, like, legitimately, a fight we got into and I was like, I I don't know. I know I want to go to therapy so I can learn how to be a better human like me. Going to therapy isn't just to talk about you being an asshole, like, but you're being an asshole. Like, right? That was, like, the only conversation. I was like, I'm asking for help, and we're talking about how you are going to be an asshole. Like, do you not realize that this moment is about you are being an asshole, right?

Lee:

Exactly? You're just, you're just proving my point,

Siobhan:

like you're trying to tell me don't eat there because you're not that big of an asshole, while you're making me ask. Well, you're making me think, like asking for help is me making you like I was, like, I was like, the mental gymnastics I have to go through just for this conversation, should explain while I have issues, like,

Lee:

right? Yeah, yeah.

Siobhan:

Do you recognize when you start to spiral out? Or do you not notice it till you've already spiraled Are you like that aware yet? Well,

Lee:

so that there's this, it feels like this building panic and but I tell myself that I'm handling things, right. Oh, it's amazing that I have, you know, like, I'm doing okay. I'm, like, actually hanging in there. Wow. Like, look at me handling this. And that is usually the red flag. If I start saying that to myself, then I need to really do something for myself, like go for a run or, you know, physical exercise is huge. It's so important. And you know it in handling all of that inner turmoil, right? You can kind of get into a meditative state when you're exercising and like really things become clear, but also talking about it openly helps it can diffuse it. So when I start getting to that point, if I can reach out to somebody, and it's so difficult for me to do that, I don't like to burden anyone. I don't want to buy. Or anybody, I tend to isolate when I start feeling all of that chaos. So I not a burden on anybody, but then it explodes. So yeah, the two things that I know work for me are exercise and talking about it, right? So yes and no, you know there. There are times that I isolate and then everything explodes and I'm just a big, huge ball of crying stress. And other times when I recognize this is what I'm doing, and that it feels the panic. I feel like the panic is building. Okay, then I need these outlets, right? You know,

Siobhan:

is it just through therapy that you learn to not isolate and to talk because you are pretty open about things like, I

Lee:

try, I try to be right? Yeah. I mean, I remember early on, when, you know, was sort of drilled into me as a kid, like, don't, you know, everything must be private. Don't, you know how the family appears is more important than anything else. You know, it really was a difficult thing for me to overcome, right? But, and especially like when social media became more of a thing and people started talking about personal stuff, at first, I still was clinging to that, you know? I shouldn't. I shouldn't ever, like all these people who are talking about their feelings and their problems online, like, that's online forever. Like, how can you do that? You know? And it finally came around. Like, No, that's good. That's healthy. People should reach out. This is a good platform to do it, and then you normalize it. The more you talk about all of that stuff that more other people feel more comfortable about, all the shit that's, you know, that they're feeling right like, I think it's very healthy. I mean, sure, there are ways that you can abuse social media, but yeah, and we've seen that, you know, but, uh, but I think it's good to use as a form of normalizing mental health issues. Definitely.

Siobhan:

Do you ever get like, a vulnerability hangover? Well, yeah, I like to, and I will, like, rip myself apart for like, being too vulnerable with someone, or for being too honest, which is funny to me that now I have a podcast where I talk about all my shit. The irony is not lost, but I like, even still Now, sometimes when I talk to someone about something, I the next day will be like, I'll text message them and tell them not to talk to anyone about or I'll like, hope I didn't overshare. Or like, I get so in my head about it that I'm like, I can't even believe I shared some of that. Like, we've never talked about this, and I can't believe I didn't think we're going to talk about today, but last night, I just talked to someone about, how will he died, and he comes up here all the time, because I'm never going to not talk about him. But like, I shared a bunch of that stuff. And like, this morning, when I woke up, like, I wanted to text this girl and like, be like, like, I don't know, they just like, dismiss everything I had said and everything I said to her last night, I meant, and I had no problem. And I was like, just hadn't thought about it. Like, it just kind of came up in conversation. She was asking the last person I dated who's saying this, and she's like, so you were married, and she's like, but now you date women. And I was like, what? I'm like, I mean, I would, I haven't, but I would. And she's like, Oh, I thought you just dated women now. And I was like, No, I love that. You think that though I haven't dated a woman, I would? I have no problem. Like, I, you know, I'm open. I'm like, but no, I've always dated dudes. And she's like, Oh, so you're married, but then you got divorced. And I was yeah, I'm like, Oh, well, also, last dude I was dating that, like, and she was like, wait, what? Like, and it was just kind of one of those moments. And I was just like, oh yeah. Like, and then so we kind of talked about it all, and I was just this, like, I said this morning was like, I need to, like, take all of that stuff back. No, which I it's such a weird Yeah. And because you're a very honest like and not like, You're not an over share, it's not what I'm trying to say, but like you are like a share, like you. I wouldn't ever think that you have that, but I've now learned that so many people do have the same kind of feelings. They're just better at dealing with it.

Lee:

I don't know if I'd say better. They might. They might appear that they're dealing with it in more positive way, but that you don't know what's going on internally. Oh yeah, yeah, I definitely have that. You know, we're all panic, and then I've got to sort of mentally talk to myself through it like, you know you didn't. Say anything that wasn't true, right? And so what you know, you got it out there, and maybe something that you said was helpful to the other individual, and if they're gonna judge you based on that, well then yeah, they're probably not worth your time. Anyways, yeah, exactly, better to know now. Yeah,

Siobhan:

yeah. Did it take you a while to get comfortable with that, or to, like, be able to talk yourself kind of into being good with it, or, like, when you decided to start sharing on social media, or sharing, like the parts of your story that you've shared, did it happen kind of naturally? Did you have to force yourself because, like, sometimes I feel like I'm not, yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm forcing myself to kind of share and be open. Because I'm like, I know it's gonna cause me more anxiety later. Or it's like, yeah, I want to give that person. It's like, almost I get too much in my head, I

Lee:

guess. Yeah, no, it didn't come naturally. I definitely had to sort of force myself to do it initially. It's feeling a little more organic now, but I still sort of grapple with it like, Is this something I really should be throwing out there? Or maybe not? Maybe sleep on it and see how I feel. You know, definitely it's never a good idea to get shit housed, and almost always the next day. Oh, God. How do I take that down? Did people see that?

Siobhan:

You just delete it and never talk about it. No, you must, you must have been drunk.

Lee:

Thought you were seeing things,

Siobhan:

not really. It was not me.

Lee:

I've definitely had those moments like, oh my god, girl, you need to breathalyzer on your computer.

Siobhan:

See, I think that's what my dyslexia, like, helps me win. Because I'll start to try to spell something and be like, I can't, and then I'm usually a little too tipsy to, like, look it up like I normally would, yeah. And I'm just like, I'm too dumb for this right now. Uh, dyslexia for the win

Lee:

today, yeah, the that hat, that like half of a text that you never sent, are like, oh, thank Christ. When you look at your phone,

Siobhan:

yeah, everyone's, you know, what I used to miss is when I had an Android, you could do like, a draft text. Oh, nice. And you can't do that with an iPhone, yeah? So I would, like, write people draft texts as I was drunk and, like, then I obviously wouldn't send it. Like, the next morning, I'd wake up and reread them all. See, that's great. That's and that was, like, a smart like, like, back in the day when, you know, we'll write a letter,

Lee:

right, but don't send it.

Siobhan:

The Android is the old draft letter?

Unknown:

Yeah? Totally, yeah.

Siobhan:

We need to bring that back. IPhone, yeah, the drafts is, like, an important thing. I think again, it's smart to, like, draft something and then go back and read it before you send it, especially if you've had a few cocktails. So

Lee:

on the iPhone, I use the notes, the notes out, oh yeah. And then I'll just, like, get it all out, and then, you know, like, later look at it again and either choose to maybe send it, or send parts of it or not send it at all. But at least it was very therapeutic. At the moment, I could just really great get that all out. Yeah. Plus

Siobhan:

you could, like, write 18 emails in that thing, just hop right at it and then be like, Oh, look at icing to so and so. Yeah. I kind of like, I kind of think that's brilliant. I kind

Lee:

of like going back and looking throughout the years, you know, because I saved them, right? And they're sort of like almost journal entries anyway, and just, oh my gosh, this is what I was dealing with, you know, however many years ago at this point in time in my life, you know, it's interesting.

Siobhan:

Oh yeah, I have when I first moved out here in 2020, you know, it's been a while, five years, almost five years, um, I started journaling again. And, like, I can't, and I've done it by the year, and I've done it, and I have them all printed so I could go through them. Because, like, I want to do like, a real like, year intake, or five year intake of like, because this has been a wild ride the last five years. Oh, yeah. You know, independent of what the last five years actually have been, in reality, they were wild, just for me. Like, I moved here, you know, I was restarting my whole life, and then, like, the world shut down, and then I was here by myself, and like, didn't really have, you know, like, and then just how far my life has come from. When I came to California, and that first year I was here to now and then to think, like, where I was actually in my life before I came here, and then, like, the two or three years before that, and even the five years before that, like how drastic My life has changed. Oh, my God, I know. And like, I sometimes try to think about what my mental state was back then, and I don't even feel like I know that person anymore. Like there's parts of me, like I forget that exist, like every once in a while, and I just said this to someone the other day, like someone was shocked that I was married and I didn't know how to take it, like, I didn't know I was like, because you don't think anyone would want to marry me, or because, like, you don't think I am like, have enough time in my life to make a partner feel welcome. Like, was it because you think I'm so independent and I'm always like or like, probably more of what it is, and I think so too. But like, my first initial reaction was, like, you don't think someone would want to live with me, like, you know, like, and it's still like, those moments of, like, battling. But then, when I really think about it, the person that was married, I to me, she doesn't exist anymore, yeah? Well,

Lee:

in a way, that's true, right, yeah,

Siobhan:

but it's like, I can't, barely remember what it was like to function back then, yeah. And so then I think about people that have grown, like, exponential exponentially from where I am, like, they do really forget what it was like to hustle. They do really forget what it was like to grind it all out every day. Like, yeah, if I forget it what it was like to be like a loveless fat chick, you know, like, and I don't, I say it jokingly, but I also say it as, like, that version of me, like, half of her really doesn't even exist, like, physically, yeah, you know, like, so, like, the mental part to not even understand how that exists. Like, it's just a weird thing, and I think, and I'm so shaken from it and, like, shocked, that I wonder, like, how many people take that moment to think about their growth?

Lee:

Yeah? Yeah. I you know, it's interesting that you say that so very, very recently, this, this last week, friend of mine passed, and it was shocking and upsetting, and we, at one point in time had been very, very close, and that was sort of back when I was Polly, and she was one of my partners. And I, you know, after I found out she had died, suddenly, I started going through all of the old photos, and she and I had stayed in contact. We, there was a period of time where we didn't talk because there were some hurt feelings. But then, you know, I don't, I don't remember who reached out first, but we, you know, she was big in the burlesque scene, and I was also doing burlesque, and we decided to collaborate, and we had some really great numbers we did. And I was so happy for our friendship to, you know, be there again. And she also pulled me into one of my favorite stores that I always wanted to sell out of, because I also make jewelry. And she was like, well, girl, I'm, you know, gonna be taking it over for a month, and this is your chance to finally be there and have your stuff there. And so we were very supportive of each other as well. Over the last few years we had kind of, like, there was some back and forth, but it just felt so difficult to get together for lunch. You know, even she's in San Francisco, you know, I'm, I'm in Alameda that it's not that far apart. But sometimes it feels like you're, you know, yeah. Like, stations apart, yeah, so I started doing the deep dive into all of our photos and memories and wanting to pay tribute to her online. But in the process, I started looking at who I was even 10 years ago and going, where did she go? I mean, I don't know that she would recognize me now, and I'm so sad that I've lost parts of who I was. And so I started to really think about, how can I bring that person back, you know? Yep, so I I'm in all my grief over the loss, I'm also going to use this, and I know she would be right behind me, saying, You better as an opportunity to. You tried to get some of that past me back, you know, fuck yeah, yeah,

Siobhan:

yeah. Like, and I'm glad that you put it like that, because there was so much of me that it's like, I don't recognize that version of me, and I don't because that version of me wasn't the best version, right? Like, the version right now is the better version, in my own little humble opinion, yeah, right, because I wasn't living my truth, then I wasn't and that's why everything in my life wasn't working right, right? It's because, yeah, even though, like, I was doing things for what I thought was the right reasons, and because I love someone, like, if I'm really, like, step back and look at it like, I know I wasn't happy, and I know I all of this stuff that was wrong with it because I wasn't who I was supposed to be. And so when I think about it now, like, I'm like, I can't even remember what that woman is like, but when I think about it from that woman's perspective and the person I am now, it's like, oh, I am, like, back to who I was before that stuff, right? Like, because now we're in our ages where, like, we were old enough that we've lived kind of multiple lives, yeah, like, right? Like we lived the life that we were supposed to as a kid. And then we, like, we're starting to build our lives that we wanted to and then we kind of lost it because of whatever, like, giving into things. And you compromise in life, you compromise for love, you compromise for family, you compromise for jobs. And then one day, you realize, like, you've compromised who you are, right? Yeah. And then you're like, Oh no, no, fuck that. I'm getting back to me, right? Yeah, yeah, right. But then in that same kind of time frame, sometimes you compromise in the other way, right, where, like, you give up those parts of you that you knew and like to be. We're both on like, a very similar trajectory, but in like different, like, I'm trying to I'm gaining that person back where you're losing isn't the right word, or, I guess maybe you feel like you've lost a little bit

Lee:

of that person. Well, what I mean is, I mean, yes, all those things that you said like I'm in, definitely in a better place now, because I have all these tools that I didn't have, and I have all this understanding that I didn't have previously, and I'm so grateful that life, my life, has afforded me that opportunity to get to where I am, emotionally and mentally, however, the more playful aspects of my life, you know, I hit some point where I thought, Oh, nobody wants to look at me doing burlesque anymore. And, you know, stopped doing my art because I believed I can't make any money doing this, you know, and I received so much joy from doing those things. And that's what I want to bring back, is the playfulness the artsy side, the person who is driven and inspired by all of that, right? I want her back, yeah, but, but with all of the knowledge and wisdom and experience that I've had, I I want to merge those two selves. God, I can't wait to see that.

Siobhan:

Because really you do, like you are a person that when you when you walk into a room, you're noticeable. You know what I mean, like, and people notice, because you are a beautiful woman, and you are, I've seen some of your not art, not all of it, and it is beautiful. Like, I didn't realize that you'd stop doing that because you kind of lost some of that. I thought maybe it's because you lost your joy. I mean, as I finish that thought, like you did lose some of your joy, but I do hope you find it back. Because, like, that's the stuff that makes you you, and that's the stuff that makes you more beautiful. Oh, because, like, when you are have that, like you have you shine differently,

Lee:

yeah, yeah. Well, everyone does, right,

Siobhan:

yeah, but I especially want to make sure you hear that because Thank you. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I find you so kind of attractive and enamored and want to talk to you. Because we always have great conversations. You always are, like, you always bring something new to the table, or something you know, like, it's just a joy to talk to you and to see you and interact with you, because you have such a good vibe. Oh, I want to see you do burlesque. I didn't know that you did that last in the past. Yeah, it was really fun. I can imagine. I want to take, there's flux vertical. Have you heard of that? No, there's a pole dancing studio in Oakland, and they do a bunch of different classes. The woman, one of the women that opened it, I did a little work with her partner, husband, who's a bass player, a big bass player, so, but I got, I took a class once was a full dancing, full dancing class, yes. And I went and, like, you know, I have my shoulder injury, and so, like, I was, like, in the weird I was talking to the instructor, and she was saying, like, she wasn't going to do all the moves because of an injury. And then, like, I was kind of making her a little more than, like. What she was telling us. And she's like, Oh, do you have an injury too? And I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of, you know, messed up, and we're doing something. And she was like, Oh no, you have to, like, really, like, grab the pole and, like, dip. And she's like, your left hand is great. Your right hand is not so great. Yeah, my right hand doesn't really work. And she just kind of looked at me, like, why are you here? And I was like, No, I want to try it. Like, yeah, I'd like to find my sexy back and not just be like a dork like I am, you know. So, like, I, let's go take a class together. Yeah, you back into it or give us a class?

Lee:

Oh, gosh, let me take a class with you.

Siobhan:

All right, let's go take a class. Yeah, that would be so much fun I did.

Lee:

It would exactly once a pole dancing class, and I came away so bruised. It was so challenging. I mean, it's, I have nothing but admiration for people who can do that. Oh yeah, it's a sport. It is. It should be in the Olympics. I swear to God, like it. I can't wait for the day that it is, because that is awe inspiring and jaw dropping. What those humans can do vertically, you know.

Siobhan:

But even the burlesque stuff, knowing how to move like that, or like, you know, like the playing with the emotion of it, like, that's such a art too, yeah.

Lee:

And, you know, my friend and I used to like to do really macabre burlesque, so there was always some humor in it, and that was just the most fun that would be fun to to do again. Yeah, yeah. Does

Siobhan:

macabre come from, like, the punk stuff, or, like, because it's punk and goth, kind of, like, is there an intersection there? Is it like, two very different Well, I feel like

Lee:

post punk is kind of that intersection, okay, you know, I've, but I've always been like I came out of the womb like this. You know, I remember as a little girl, I just hated pink so much, and my mom wanted nothing more than to have a little girl with a pink room and dolls I did not like them, and dolls everywhere in my room, and I always, you know, rooted for the villain and all of the Disney movies. They were so misunderstood, you know, they were my favorite characters because they were the most complex, right? And the the good guy was always so basic and boring

Siobhan:

and kind of dumb,

Lee:

yeah, yeah, you know, I just, and then I all developed a fascination for carnivores and, you know, predators in the animal kingdom, because they were so maligned. And right? Why should they be maligned? They're just trying to survive like the rest of us. And, yeah, I don't know what happened when my mom had me, but I'm the total black sheep of the family. I rest

Siobhan:

of them are just wearing their polos and, yeah, I've

Lee:

always been a weirdo, but I'm okay with it. I'm

Siobhan:

getting more and more comfortable with the fact that I'm a weirdo, like I always have been, but I've always also tried to, like, fit into the thing. Because that's what I was like, raised to try to train or train to they tried, you know, because, like, I went to Catholic school, and there was, like, all the rules to being fitting in. And I'd be like, Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. Like, like, you don't fit in. Okay, then I don't fit in. Like, I don't I'll go over there. I like those people over there better. Like, anyways, it's fine.

Lee:

I was raised Episcopalian Catholic light, you know, yeah, half the guilt.

Siobhan:

That must be so nice.

Lee:

Believe me, it was still a tremendous amount of guilt, but

Siobhan:

we have so much guilt. Like, I always feel bad. It's not like, and sometimes everyone smell like, over explain stuff to my boss, and he's like, you could have just and I'm like, I don't know. Like, I just want you to understand where I'm coming from, why I'm doing. Oh,

Lee:

my God, isn't that hard to overcome the over explaining and the that feeling of like, liability, yeah, I've really been looking at that lately. Like, Why am I feeling like this is all on me, yes.

Siobhan:

And like, I know in my brain I'm not responsible for how someone else responds or reacts to something. Like, I know that, but in my head, I still want to take care of them, yeah? And like, I want to make it easier for them. Or, like, I know they're not going to like what I'm about to say, because I know them. But like, this is also the facts. Yeah. Yeah, you know, like, I actually was thinking about this this morning because my friend Anna, who we work on another podcast together and some other projects, and she's in jury duty all this week, and I'm so excited she's on a jury. Like, I have so many questions, but, you know, she's not allowed to talk about it, right? I hope it's like, something good me too, but, like, I don't really know. And so I've been dying, and I was like, I want to do jury duty so bad. And she was like, Excuse me. And I remember as a kid, like, I wanted to go to jury duty so bad. And like, I got my first summons to go, and I was so excited. And then, like, I realized the courthouse was one of my aunt's courthouses, so I'm like, oh, like, I can't be on a jury in her courthouse, because she works there, and, like, because I know her, I don't know everybody else in the building. Like, you know, I'm deemed impartial. But I remember I went, and when I got there, it was like, no one in that courtroom knew who I was. So I was like, maybe, like, I know I can be impartial. Like, I prefer just facts, yeah. Like, all the emotions get messy, like, the way I should be like, just give me all the facts, and like, I am good, I will give you, like, a fair and just opinion. But what happened? Well, I was there for like, the first half of the morning, and I was like, dodging anyone that knew me, and then one of the court officers was like, Wait a second, come here. Yo, we came back, I think, after lunch, and he was like, Excuse me, Miss, can you come here? Oh, no. He's like, Don't I know you? And I was like, I don't think so. No, I feel like I know you. Don't you know someone here. And I was like, oh. And then he was like, hold on, aren't you related to so and so? And I was like, maybe. And he was like, isn't like, Hanlon, like one of the judges there. He's like, isn't the judge so and so, like, her friend, and I was like, I don't know, maybe she's been to a couple dinners. He's like, you can't be here. Like, you could. Why have you been here all morning? And I was like, I just wanted to know how it works. Like, oh, I wanted to, like, be part of our, like, democracy, right? You know that 18, you're still kind of, like, a little bright eyed and, like, excited for how it all works and the justice of it all. And then I was just like, Yeah, you can't. And I was like, I can be impartial, I'm telling you. And he's like, yeah, that's not how it works. And I'm like, you think that guy over there can be impartial? Like, I've seen what he says when he's four beers deep. Like, definitely not partial to anything. Like, I'm a teen. I'm still, like, young, and I don't know, ideally say that, but I do so mad.

Unknown:

And

Siobhan:

then I've not been called for jury duty anywhere else I've lived really, yeah, once in Arizona, but then I called in and they're like, We don't need you. And then I've never been called again.

Lee:

That's crazy. And you're registered to vote here? Yeah, I've always registered.

Siobhan:

The first time I've ever moved anywhere, like, as soon as I change my address, I always register to vote. I don't always vote, which is a problem probably. I mean, I have in the last couple elections because they felt bigger. But yeah, yeah, I haven't.

Lee:

I wish I could give all of my jury Simmons to you.

Siobhan:

I would take them. I so want to, like, be a part of that. Now. I'm gonna get, like, called tomorrow. Have you ever been on a journey?

Lee:

So most of the time, I can't do it because it conflicts with work. But I did. I was able to go in once and waited and waited, and then we all got sent home. So no, I have not effectively been, yeah, yeah, it would be. I mean, if it would be for something really good, like that could be interesting, right? But, yeah, yeah,

Siobhan:

something I want to do. I love watching like, I mean, I loved Law and Order growing up. I mean, who doesn't, but, yeah, never got to. I do I want to. I actually the judge that I knew as a kid. I believe I'm going to get to talk to her in a few months. Oh, me, yeah, she's tired. Yes, yep. Oh,

Lee:

that's so cool. Yeah, I think, oh my god, picking her brain would be Yeah,

Siobhan:

especially like her story, from this stuff, I remember her story is interesting, but just on the surface is She's a white woman that was a judge in a mostly black area in Boston. Wow. So that perspective has to be really interesting. Especially she was a judge in the 90s and 2000s in Boston.

Lee:

That would be fascinating. Yeah, some

Siobhan:

I prelimatively let Yes, she's gonna come on, so now we're just scheduling, and when I'm back east and can do it and she'll, hopefully will align soon, well, I can't wait to listen to that. Yeah, I'm super excited. Yeah, it's very exciting to do this. I get to talk to all kinds of people about all kinds of things, and, like. Uh, you know, for someone that you went through something that was really terrible, I mean, and not that I like to weigh anything, but, like, it could have been worse, but it was still terrible. I mean, it was still a fucking terrible Yes, like, and to the way that you have dealt with it and been open and honest about it, and kind of reclaimed your space is just a really powerful thing, I think, thank you. And you never once let it kind of like define you or ruin you, or like it hasn't changed you. You know what I mean? Like it hasn't when something like that happens, I think it it's up to us on how it's kind of like your triggers are the things that happen to you. It's not triggers aren't your fault, but the response is, like, your response has been like, no, no, you're not gonna like, this isn't gonna damage me. And that's not the that's the best way I can think of saying it now, like it's something that happened to you. It doesn't define you. It doesn't right, you know, it's not gonna change the way you move through the world. In a it changes, of course, it changes the way, but like, in a meaningful way, like it's not you don't go out any less, you don't enjoy your friends any less, you don't go home expecting it to happen again. Like it's something that happened that you've kind of seems, at least on the outside, seems have dealt with and made you even kind of stronger and fiercer.

Lee:

Well, thank you, yeah. And I think

Siobhan:

it's kind of what you also kind of share about it is like, yeah, bad shit can happen, but this is how you kind of deal with it and get over it and move forward. The

Lee:

I'm trying to remember the quote, I'm gonna mess it up, but somebody said the things you don't talk about. Well, essentially, to paraphrase, the things that you don't talk about, grow, get, gain power. So if you talk about it and you get it out there, you're not giving it power anymore. You're sharing your story, and you're hearing other people share their stories that are similar, and that gives you strength, and that helps you navigate all of these rough patches, but not talking about it gives it so much power. You're only as sick as your secrets. Yes, exactly.

Siobhan:

Yeah, yeah. It's a really true statement. Yeah. Anytime I feel like I'm not talking to people about things, I feel like I start to slide back into all the old habits that made me like a shell of who I was. Yep,

Lee:

exactly.

Siobhan:

But it is scary to share your secrets.

Lee:

It is but, I mean, I'm taking it to the whole next level. I I bet my coworkers wish that I would share a little less about things, because I'll come back and say, Hey, sorry I was gone for a while. I was pooping.

Siobhan:

Well, everybody does poop, everybody does poop, which is also like we talked about this earlier, like if everybody poops, why is it so embarrassing to have to poop in public. Well, like, it's one thing we all do, like, and nobody wants to admit it. Nobody wants to have to do it. Also, our bathrooms are set up horrible for it. In America,

Lee:

they are. They're awful, uh, I particularly was that the bathrooms at work.

Unknown:

Oh, and, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lee:

And also, why doesn't everyone have a bidet? I'm sorry, or at least, like, wipes the toilet seat. Days are now getting more affordable. Yeah, I went ahead and got

Siobhan:

one, right, right? I'm judging it. I don't have one.

Lee:

Oh my god, girl, it's a game changer. Once you have one, you will never go back. I won't wear one too. You're gonna thank me. You're gonna think,

Siobhan:

no, I love it. I've house sat for bidayu. I've had hotels with the days. I will use it if I have it. I just have never, I still haven't taken this to I do have baby wipes in my bath. You know what I mean? Like at my bathroom at home, like, I have all the things, all the accouterments to make pooping better, but I the bidet would be the ultimate, oh, God, is just and then I wouldn't have

Lee:

to worry about baby wipes. Well, I got mine when toilet paper was like, you know, everybody was hoarding it. It was so expensive. And I was like, fuck this. Yeah, I'm gonna solve this problem right now. And yeah, it's been the best thing ever. Really like it, yeah, so get, get yourself a toilet seat a day where you can adjust water temperature to, oh,

Siobhan:

well, I think that's like an if you're gonna do. You have to do it right, because

Lee:

otherwise I don't want freezing water like I know about it, you know, no, no one likes that. It's like an

Siobhan:

ice cream headache for your pussy.

Lee:

It really isn't very

Siobhan:

good. I'm so classy. All right, well, on that, I feel like that was kind of a conversation under All right. Y'all Lee, thank you for sharing with us about really, like, something that could have made you super jaded and bitter and has only made you more brilliant and beautiful.

Lee:

Oh, thank you so much. Like, thank you for having me. Yeah, this

Siobhan:

was so fun. I'm glad we got to do it, and I'm glad that everyone got to kind of get a little I want to say taste of Lee, but and then, if people want to find out where you make your jewelry, or they want to follow you, where can they find you? Where do they buy your shit? So

Lee:

currently, I have an Etsy store that's L, E, E, V, I, L, L, I F, E, Lee, evil life, I like it or the evil design, okay? And that's an underscore between legal and design. That's my I have both Instagram and Etsy with the legal design, but I'm looking to open up a Facebook page that's going to, I'll probably call it the same thing, all right, perfect legal design, and just going to be showcasing the newest stuff that I've got on there. And sweet.

Siobhan:

Well, I'll link all of that into our show notes too, and we'll post about it. And, yeah, alright, and you have a couple weeks before this comes out, so maybe we can help get your Facebook page up to you.

Lee:

Yeah, it would be great to because I think I really want to have, like, all of my stuff there, and have a little, you know, you can DM me if there's something that you're interested in, and because local people, I feel like, shouldn't be paying shipping on Etsy, I can hand deliver stuff to you. All

Siobhan:

right, so if you're in the San Francisco Bay area, you can come by and swing by. Oh, we should talk about a couple of people you could talk to about being in their stores. Oh, yeah, oh, all right, y'all that's where conversations. All right, thank you again, Lee for hanging out with us. Thank you all for listening and make sure you go find some joy today. I love you. Perfect. You.

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Siobhan Kelly

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