From Feral to Free with Tara Mae

This episode is equal parts howl-laugh funny and gut-honest. Tara grew up on the move, addiction, violence, VA psych-ward parents, and a cross-country “escape” to North Dakota, then found stability with her grandmother and, eventually, herself. She talks teen pregnancy and an open adoption, choosing partners who felt “protective” until it slid into control, and the thief-in-the-night breakups that followed.

Through it all: art as medicine, code-switching as survival, and therapy as the slow, steady re-parenting she didn’t know she needed. Today, with grown kids, a good man, and a creative community, Tara’s practicing the soft skills, slowing down, self-talk that isn’t savage, and letting joy be ordinary. If you’ve ever restarted from scratch (or wanted to), this one will land.

Transcript

Tara Mae: 0:09

I told Sandy, I was like, I'm gonna be so boring, dude, this is gonna bore people to death. I feel like I'm so much more interesting in person when I'm like, doing things with talking about me is boring, but

Siobhan: 0:20

I don't think so, because, well, let's get into it. Okay, because I don't know your story. Alright? So hey, y'all welcome to this week's episode of Ducking. Realitea, today in the pond with me is my girl, Tara. Mae, welcome, Tara, May. Hi.

Tara Mae: 0:36

Thanks for having me here. Shawn. Oh, I'm

Siobhan: 0:38

so excited to do this, because I know that you have an interesting story, but I don't know it. I know you, and I feel like I've gotten to know you really well in the past, like, year, probably year and a half,

Tara Mae: 0:48

yeah, maybe year and a half more, even over two years, really, yeah,

Siobhan: 0:54

you have known Sandy for a long time from fireside, and so when I was leaving there, you came on. And so we kind of like we're ships in the night, but we've gotten to know each other, because I've because I've still been so involved with fireside and Sandy and I are such good friends, and so we've gotten to work at different events. And you had so much fun getting to know each other and working together, yeah, and then I just love your vibe. You're fucking hysterical. And then you just are so honest about, like, you know, your kind of, your path in life, and like, the things that you struggle with, and the things that you are good at, and like, you know, you're very self aware. And I always love that in someone. And so tell me a little bit about who Tara May is and how you got here. Wow.

Tara Mae: 1:40

Thank you, Siobhan. I I really don't know where to start. One of my favorite movies is the jerk. So the first thing that comes to mind is, you know, it's coming Well, I was born a poor black child in my bestie Martin voice, right? No, I, you know, like, That's comedy, because, honestly, I don't know that I knew who I was really, until recently. I feel that, right? I really, really, like, about a year and a half ago, sat down speaking to Sandy, sat down with Sandy and Jeff, my partner, and I was like, I think I'm a grown up. Guys, like, I think I'm finally a grown up. And mind you, I've, like, raised children to adulthood, and I'm like, I think I'm a grown up finally, like, like, this great epiphany. So I I think, honestly, I'm still learning who I am, as I hope we all are, you know what I mean, like, but, yeah, like, I'm a very I'm an artistic person. You know, I'm really into art.

Siobhan: 2:53

Did you grow up here in the Bay? I

Tara Mae: 2:57

did for the most part. So I was born, I had like a military brat kind of family. So my parents, Sandy knows this story, I don't know, but we might come back to this. But anyways, yeah, I was born in San Jose, and then my parents, like, had their first little house in Milpitas that didn't last long, because my parents really had a hard time keeping their shit together.

Unknown: 3:26

And so we ended up

Tara Mae: 3:28

in, like, Richmond, California, like, living in like, you know, like the rough part of Richmond, like Kennedy Manor, like, hardcore Yeah. Like the hood. Yeah, the hood. And then, like, my parents, all this is funny to me, so don't mind me laughing, because it's funny that I'm saying these things out loud. But so my parents were running from like, child abuse

Unknown: 3:54

charges. Oh my gosh.

Siobhan: 3:59

No wonder we get along so well. Whenever I talk about something like horrific in my life, I'm always like, laughing about it

Tara Mae: 4:07

so hard not to. It's like, I would I see people like, cry about it and recount their stories with tears. I feel so bad because I just want to laugh for them, because I'm like, it's kind of funny, like, I'm still here and they're really fucking hilarious stories like so anyways, we're enrichment, and I remember we have like this kind of weird, like family member, ish, kind of person living above us, and police came to the house, and my parents, next thing I knew, the police came, checked us for bruises and stuff. And then we, like my parents, bought like this, like trailer, and they parked it in front of, like the apartment. We, like me and my brother, would go eat TV dinners in there and play in there and shit. Next thing we knew, we packed it and moved and ended up in Fargo, North Dakota.

Siobhan: 5:00

Yeah, and was that like running from the child abuse stuff,

Tara Mae: 5:03

basically. So my mother and father later, I found that their intention was to go to Canada. They were like, we're moving to Canada. Crazy, right? No, if I told, I told

Siobhan: 5:16

Sandy, why wouldn't they go to Mexico? It would be warmer. I do.

Tara Mae: 5:19

I don't know my mother doesn't like heat, so that probably my mother hated heat. They were crazy, so that she was like, I can't live. She probably was like, I can't live in the heat. James, so she was like, let's go to Canada then. And our car broke down in Bismarck, North Dakota, and so we ended up living in Fargo for like, a year and a half. And I did my first and second grade year in Fargo.

Siobhan: 5:44

Were your parents beating you?

Tara Mae: 5:47

Mostly my mother, my father was very much like. He was very much like I don't want to beat you,

Unknown: 6:01

but your mom

Tara Mae: 6:02

makes me and I gotta deal with her ass. So, you know, he was like, the cool dad that was like, mom getting beat too. Basically, he would, like, like, he'd be like, Look, I'm not gonna hit you. And he'd make it sound like he was gonna hit you, you know, like, like, literally, it was, kind of, it was comedy like that. Kind of, it was like a Richard Pryor fucking comedy movie,

Siobhan: 6:23

dude, no wonder you're so funny.

Tara Mae: 6:26

When people were like, where are you so funny? Dude, I'm like, PTSD. It makes for the best you think about like, the best comedians are the most like, the people that have come to terms with it all and are just like, bro, I'm still here and funny as shit,

Siobhan: 6:45

telling someone like, how I went on a date with a guy, and it was right after Wilke died, and I didn't think about the fact that they would ask me what happened with my last relationship. And so I was like, oh, like, so we're sitting with just having a nice conversation. Then he's like, so like, what happened with your last relationship? And I started giggling. And I was like, Oh, he died. The guy is like, starting to giggle a little too. He's like, Oh, that's funny. And I was like, No, and he's like, no. But I laughed again, and I could not stop giggling, right? And I was like, yeah, no, he just, he just died one night, I don't know. He just didn't wake up. And he was like, Oh, my God, that's terrible. I'm like, I know, right? He's missed every shift.

Tara Mae: 7:36

People don't know how to react to it. Sometimes

Siobhan: 7:38

they're like, Yeah, and like, I don't want to comfort you about my sad thing. Like, and then he's just looking at me like, I'm crazy. And then, like, the next he calls me, like, a couple days later, he's like, you want to go again? I was just like, I don't know. And one of my friends is like, well, I'm like, Dude, I could not stop laughing about my dead boyfriend. Like, that's a red flag. Like, I could see my own red flag. Why would you want to date me? I Yeah, I

Tara Mae: 8:03

don't know. I would take that as a green flag. I totally take that as a green flag. I'd be like, That bitch has got her shit together. She totally knows how to keep it rolling. That

Siobhan: 8:18

guy didn't think that that was a flag. That's probably a problem.

Tara Mae: 8:21

When he said, Do you want to go out? Like, you're like, do you want to go out on

Unknown: 8:27

a date? Again, this guy's calling me.

Tara Mae: 8:35

It's so funny, because I've so often encountered like, you know, people like, really, like, not knowing how to take that like, reaction that we have. And it's when people want to sit there and they go on and say, Oh, I'm so sorry. I even stopped them before it even gets there. I'm like, if we're talking about this, let's not even say sorry. It's all funny to me. Yeah? Sometimes

Siobhan: 8:54

I'm like, oh yes, thank you. But let's get back to the funny part. Yeah, the funny

Unknown: 8:58

let's get back to the funny part. Because there's so many funny parts

Siobhan: 9:05

now you're in being beaten basically.

Tara Mae: 9:10

And then my dad, like, apparently, probably got sick of the shit. I remember my parents had this weird fight, throwing stuff at each other and and then my dad just packed his shit left. Oh, wow. And he took my little brother with him, because I only had one little brother, he took him with him, and I was stuck up there with my mother. He was like, boys, go with boys. Yes, very it was very much like that. That's even how it's explained to me. Yeah, my mom's Japanese, so she was very much like, Nope. That's how it goes. Boys go with boys, and girls stay with girls. And I was like, but you're not nice. I don't want to be a girl. Part of like, part of very much like, why I'm such a big tomboy. Now, I grew up like my mom. Wanted a boy really bad. She told me she wanted a boy really bad. So she had me first, then she had my brother, and she like, doted on him really hard. And then I was like, I want to be a boy just to piss her off. Like, I remember being like that when I was a kid. And I was like, then I grew up, and I was like, No, I like being just this way tough girl, you know, kind of but, yeah, I grew up with weird parents, like, I can laugh at this. Now I'm going to say it because it's funny as shit. And there's no I'm Holly. Will love this. I'm 50, I'm 50, and I can say it ain't none you lied Right? Like, so the funniest thing is that my parents literally met in a VA psych ward. Oh, wow, which is hilarious, because I told Sandy the story the first time. She just was like, what? And I was like, yeah, that's why I'm me. My dad had come back from Vietnam. My dad was like, this super track star, basketball star, went to Salesian High School in Richmond. Grew up in part of Chester village. Really nice, affluent black family, you know, not affluent in terms of rich, but they were very they just took care of they worked really hard, and they really had pride in what they had. They had a home that they had bought for their family and children to raise and all that stuff. So my dad was, like, he was baby boy, and he was like, so good at everything. It was really handsome, and they called him baby brother. So when it came time, you know, he got all these like scholarships to go wherever we wanted to go. And one of those scholarships was to West Point. Oh, okay. And instead of going to all the other coolest places, he could have gone and he decided to go into the military, not even West Point, he just went into the military and got drafted over to Vietnam and ended up there, yeah. So imagine being like, baby boy, track star, basketball star, like, doted on, like, spoiled, and then you go to Vietnam, what's the first thing you're doing drugs? And that's what he did. So he came back strung out on heroin. And a

Siobhan: 12:10

lot of those guys did because it was also, like, served up to them over there, yeah, yeah, yeah, which I think a lot of people don't realize or know anymore, right? Because there's not as many vets. I mean, there, there's a like, I don't know, when I was a kid, you saw the VA vet, like, the vets everywhere, right? And, like, you heard their stories. Or maybe it's just I had uncles that were there, and so I

Tara Mae: 12:34

would, maybe that's what it was. Maybe it's because we had people directly related to us who experienced it, and so we, you know, maybe we were just more keen to what we were, what was out there, to hear about it. But yeah, and then my mother, she was in the military, and she got kicked out, because back in the 73 this is about 73 and a 7273 beginning of 73 she got kicked out. She was, she got caught messing around with a woman. Oh, and so that was like, you know, you get out skis, you're mental so, oh, wow. And that was how my parents came together. And so that was the beginning of some crazy stuff. We're we we are in Fargo, and I think I'm stuck there with my mom forever. And then finally, my dad, somehow, I don't even know how, because I blacked out a lot of this stuff. And then we ended up back here in Oakland, and I well, it was Emeryville. We landed in Emeryville and I went to school. I got to be stable in school for once in my life, from third grade to eighth grade, which was a really great experience for me, yeah, and Emeryville was a very interesting place. It was really small and developing, okay? And so there were a lot of different cultures that came together there. And I was a little mixed girl, you know, Japanese and black and white. And there were like, Pakistani kids next door to me and the Sikh children across the street and the, you know, the Latino families, and it was in the bunch of mixed families. Emeryville was great for me. It was like, somewhere that I finally felt like, Wow. I kind of feel like, I feel comfortable here, right, you know? So that was, that was cool. Emeryville.

Siobhan: 14:21

Nice, yeah, yeah, cuz, and then you don't and because, over it's so diverse, it feels safer. I'm sure it

Tara Mae: 14:27

did. It did feel safe, yeah, it felt it for the like I said, for the first time in my life, it felt like I had a home. You know, I got teased a lot in school because we were really poor, like a lot of us were, you know, but, and my mom was a really mean alcoholic, and she used to cut my hair and do mean things make me wear her old clothes, like, like, you don't need to be cute. You need to be worried about going to school. Like, have to wear bell bottoms that she pull out of her closet, like, like, so I got teased incessantly, but it really made me tough. Yeah, it made me strong, and it made me focus on things that were important, like being a nice kid,

Siobhan: 15:04

yeah, do you think that's where you got your love of passion? And, like, making your own clothes too is a necessity,

Tara Mae: 15:11

really? Yeah, having to figure out ways to make the stuff look cool, or at least like feel good and authentic to me, right? So, you know, like cutting up clothing and like doing stuff, I'd get in trouble for it too. Like, she'd be like, Why is this cut up? And I'd be like, I ripped it when I jumped over a fence. It's like, you know, like making up anything, but yeah, it definitely, like, clothing is huge to me, because, like, it just, yeah, I love clothing, and it's not even about, like, designer labels and stuff, because I'm the chick that'll, like, buy a secondhand coach person,

Unknown: 15:46

run it through the dirt just to be a bitch and do the wrong

Tara Mae: 15:51

thing to it, like, throw my gum wrappers in it. Yeah, whatever. But, yeah,

Siobhan: 15:57

yeah. So did your parents get back together then?

Tara Mae: 16:00

So they did get back together, and they stayed, we stayed in Emeryville for that, like, the five year chunk nice. And then when I was about 12, they decided to split up. So by 12, like I was in seventh grade, I was actually a year ahead because they skipped, I skipped kindergarten. I probably got on my kindergarten teacher's nerve so bad, it's like, all she does is read and she won't take naps, and she corrects me all the time. Oh, no. So they were like, she needs to go the first grade, yeah? So it wasn't like I valiantly skipped kindergarten, sure.

Siobhan: 16:34

Well, if you were reading all the time, you probably were just ahead of the other kids.

Tara Mae: 16:37

Yeah, exactly. I had a crazy Japanese mom at home, like, you know, Tiger Mom. Yes, totally. So, yeah. So they, they split up when I was 12, and then it was weird, because he was kind of around in and out for like, a couple of years, and then at 14, they really just split, split. But I was with my mom for that time, and she was, you know, very emotionally abusive, very physically abusive. It was, it wasn't a good time. Yeah, she was also struggling through her own alcoholism and mental mental health stuff that was undiagnosed. And, you know, to be fair, she didn't, I don't think she had the resources or even knew the wherewithal what to do, right?

Siobhan: 17:23

Yeah, because when you're in it, it's hard to know that you're in it sometimes. And I think people lose that. Like, I know when I was in some of the darkest times, like I didn't know I was in those dark times, like I thought I was doing okay. I thought I was like, pulling it off right, and I was very much not right. And like, when I talked to friends and stuff after that. They were like, you were like, not even alive, right? You weren't there. They were like, you were like, your body was there, but nothing else. And I was just like, Yeah, I don't even and then, and then I had to admit, like, there were some things I don't remember even being at, yeah, where I'm like, I know I was there because I have the photos, I have the keepsakes, I've no, almost no memory of being there, right? And I'm like, fuck. And I really thought at the time, like I was doing everything, right? Yeah, and I was so fucked that it was just you can't see it. It's like the forest through the trees kind of thing, absolutely crazy. And then if you, if no one's ever taught you about it or to be aware of it, or,

Tara Mae: 18:14

yeah, she didn't have a great example. I get it, you know, she came from her mother's from Japan, spoke very little English, even at the very so the end of her life, you know, I get it, she didn't get all the Yeah. So, you know, I know she didn't know, right? But

Siobhan: 18:29

it doesn't make it okay. It just makes it easier to understand.

Tara Mae: 18:32

I think it also didn't help this. She like, was like, I'm gonna find something to make me feel grounded. I know I'll become a Jehovah's Witness. So that didn't help. So I ended up spending a nice chunk of my childhood under the under that bright or yellow book with the shiny red letters that my book of Bible stories shit that they wow, I was so I was the kid on top of being like poor and broke and busted down, fucked up Afro and weird little mixed kid, like, what are you like? I also was like the kid that couldn't have cupcakes and shit with Halloween, that I couldn't do birthdays and I couldn't do anything, so I was just celebrate anything. I was like, so ostracized, and I had, like, so few friends, but my friends were really good friends, and I was also friends with my teachers. It wasn't a teacher's pet thing. It was like, You're my teachers, and I had friendships, and I think that that really saved me, because I wasn't getting anything from home. In that regard, everything was like you could do better. You need to do better. If it was a B, it should have been an A. If it was an A, it should have been an A plus an extra credit, you know, so I I learned that having a very small, tight circle of friends is all right, yeah, you know, sometimes.

Siobhan: 20:00

I think it's better, because then you really know each other and, like, have each other where, if you like a huge group that you kind of just fluttering kind of between, you don't get that same support,

Tara Mae: 20:08

right, right? I don't. I'm not, like, the fair weather friend, I'm the all the time friend, yeah, like, I'm not gonna sit there and chat on the phone with you all day long, but I guarantee you, like, when there's something going down with you. I'm right there, yeah, but I won't support your bullshit either, and I'll call you out and just like I want you to do for me too. Like, you know that, yeah, I'm that friend. Like, if you want someone to blow smoke up your ass and sunshine, don't call me

Siobhan: 20:39

when you go through such hard things, especially at an early age, I think your bullshit meter is just like, almost non existent. It's busted, yeah? Like, you're just like, like, that is not a problem, right?

Tara Mae: 20:51

But did you die? Yeah, right. It's very like, but did you die? No, shut the fuck up. Yeah. And it sometimes feels cold, but it's also like, you know, you just don't want to waste you've, you've spent so much time in your life wasting good energy on people who really just want to suck up that energy and not do anything good with it. So, you know, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan: 21:16

It's very much like, yeah. You're just like, I'm Yeah, I just take it over there. Like, I don't not mad at you for it, but I don't want it in my aura.

Tara Mae: 21:25

Like, exactly your circus, your monkey.

Unknown: 21:27

This is a monkey free zone.

Tara Mae: 21:33

I don't like loose monkeys. Okay? I don't like loose monkeys. So

Siobhan: 21:41

Did it get better in high school

Tara Mae: 21:42

or worse? Oh, that was the interesting part. So I went from being like, really, really sheltered by my mother, you know, it was a very like home, do your chores, you know, do your homework and wait to be given orders, right from that. And one day when I was 14 years old, I looked at her, she had she was hitting me, and I said, You can't hit me anymore. And she looked at me, she said, Oh, really. I said, You can't hit me anymore. And then I she said, Okay. I said, I want to live with my dad. She grabbed garbage bags, and she started shoving my stuff in garbage bags. And I helped her. And I sat outside and waited for my dad, and he came and got me, but she had talked so bad about she's like, he's a drug addict, he's alcoholic. Well, I knew my dad drank, you know, had no idea she wasn't lying. I had no idea she wasn't lying. So I literally got picked up with garbage bags from Emeryville, flats in Emeryville, driven up to into the skyline hills. So I'm like, Man, my dad's doing good. He lives in the skyline hills, these nice house, apartments. I'm 14 years old. I'm like, she talked all that mess about my daddy. And look at my daddy up here, like the Jeffersons. And so my father had always made his living, kind of being like a jack of all trades maintenance man. So he found himself a maintenance supervisory position up there. Had a, you know, his apartment for free, or whatever he was balling up there. So it looked, I walk in and I sit down, and he's like, if you want cigarettes, there's some cigarettes. Throws him. He's like, there's beer in the fridge. And, you know? And I was like, what is happening? I was like, did I just wake up in another dimension? Like, wow, yeah, because you're 14, and from the morning time to get my ass beat until the evening time, I suddenly can have cigarettes and a beer. I don't even, I never even had those things, but sure, I'll, yeah, I'll have them, yeah, what

Siobhan: 23:45

14 year old's gonna be like, No, I'm okay. I'm like,

Tara Mae: 23:47

I just got my ass beat this morning. I'll take a cigarette and a beer, you know? Like, yeah. And it was like, I was like, my dad's so cool. Oh my gosh. But I was like, This feels weird though, too. Like, yeah. So you can imagine, like, the mind fuckery,

Siobhan: 24:03

yeah, that's like a huge swing. It was like

Tara Mae: 24:07

in your universe. I don't know if anybody's read Richard Wright, like black boy, the book Black Boy, but I remember reading that book when I was in seventh grade, and then living that out right after going, damn, I lived that book like my dad was, like, doing crazy stuff. He was like, he had he I watched him OD on heroin twice while he lived in that apartment. I yeah, he had hookers, though he was lightweight, fucking. Like, it was so redonkulous. But this is also the same dude. Like, once he wasn't doing that anymore, he would go to Chinatown and, like, because we moved down into downtown Oakland and because he couldn't afford it up there, you know, he can't keep that living going. He fucked his Shut up. We ended up in downtown. Oakland, like the Peralta apartments on 14th and Jackson. I'm like, Man, I need to get a job, because this man can't feel so working at McDonald's at that 14th and Jackson McDonald's. I'm 14, light on my work permit and everything, but he used to go his shop flip this same dude that was like, lightweight

Unknown: 25:16

pimping bitches used to come home this stupid smile on his face, and I'd be like, What are you doing? He's like, reach into his pants, like, pull out a whole salmon shoplifted.

Tara Mae: 25:39

We might have to scratch allegedly, you know, no, he's dead. We can talk about it. He was the fun when I tell you that man was hilarious. He was crazy, AF, but he was so funny, like, I see why he drove my mother crazy. But it was so funny, so funny. It was funny while it was going on, yeah, but

Siobhan: 26:04

yeah, I have an uncle like that. He was like, I don't, I can't remember a time of seeing him sober, like, ever, ever. And he, like, lived in my grandmother's basement. And like, he just like, one time that some of his the stories about him are, like, there's some of my favorite I ever grew up with. And I, like, at later in life, met one of his daughters who didn't grow up with us, like you should. Like she existed, you know, and like she like, you know, her story is her story of why they left. But he was abusive and he was an alcoholic, and you know, he, like, went AWOL from the army. So many times they just stopped coming for

Unknown: 26:37

they gave up. They were just like, yeah, just stay home. But

Siobhan: 26:41

when I met his daughter, like, I was telling her some of the stories and telling her, and I, like, stopped myself at one point, because I'm like, laughing, we're both laughing, and I was like, listen, I just, I just want you to know, like, I will always, I'll tell you whatever you want to know, like, about growing up with him. Like, but all the stories gonna come from, like, a loving, fun place and, like, because to me, he was like, I'm like, mostly a nice guy. I'm like, there was a few spots where I saw that side of him and it scared me. Like, Oh, this guy would, like, like, right? Or could, you know, like, if he was far enough, drunk or whatever, like, you know, there was like, a line that I knew, yeah, be aware of. But, yeah, other than that, like, he was like, the most honest guy. Like, you gave him $100 he'd give you bound to the penny back. You know what I mean, like, right? He's super honest and kind and like, but then also could say some of the meanest shit. Like, I walked in one Thanksgiving, and I was like, probably 13, and I had knee high boots on, and he was like, Oh, your father's working all his fucking extra hours to keep you off the pole. And here you are looking like you're getting on one Oh, and I just remember standing there, and I was like, what? And he's like, What are you a hooker? And I was like, I gotta go over here. And, like, I was just like, Oh my God. Like, okay, say, excuse me, man,

Unknown: 28:05

like, I was just

Siobhan: 28:06

like, you know, I'll tell you all these stories with like, humor and laughter, and I'm like, and she was like, no, no. It's really nice to hear someone talk about him that way, because I don't know him like that, yeah. She's like, and he's not my father. Like, he's not my dad. He's the man that gave like, yeah, my father, right, right, all right. Well, as long as you don't like, I'm like, because they're very funny to me. I'm like, but they're also funny because he's not my dad, that part, very aware of that. And was like, Yeah, you know, I just want to be respectful of the fact that if it was my dad, I don't know, I don't know, yeah. And I was like, and I just want to be cautious of that, right? She was just like, No, no. It's really just, it's funny, and she's like, and it's nice to hear someone talk about him, like, in a good light, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. That's, I think, you know, people are multi dimensional.

Tara Mae: 28:50

They are, and that part is, you know, I think a huge part of growing as a person, like realizing that, like, I wish my mother could have looked at people in a multi dimensional light, like, even herself, like, you know, there's and I think, I think I got really good at that, being able to, I didn't think of it as multi dimensional for a little while. I thought I had, like, you know, d I d like, I was like, why are there these different components and pieces of me and, like, different personalities, and I'm like, but they're all the same person, like, and really, what it was I learned how to just kind of compartmentalize these different sets of strengths that these different parts of me have, you know? And so, yeah, yeah, it's like,

Siobhan: 29:37

code switching, right? Like, yes, I didn't know code switching. Like, I mean, I knew I I didn't know how to name until I like, and then I was like, Wait, doesn't everyone

Tara Mae: 29:45

do that? Everyone? I know people like to call it for no, it's everyone. I was like,

Siobhan: 29:49

everyone does it because you do, you have a work version and you have a home version. I'm like, that's basically code switching. Yes. I'm like, It's a survival

Tara Mae: 29:56

instinct people and people code switch all, every. Days every gender. People code switch when they go to church. People code switch when they go in public speaking forums. Like every there's code switching of all types. And, yeah,

Siobhan: 30:09

yeah. And I was just like, I didn't really. And then I was like, Wait, but then some people say they don't, like, how do you say everyone

Tara Mae: 30:16

does? And the ones that truly don't, I'm gonna tell you they they're weird and inhuman to me. I'm just like, you weird. You weird. In that voice too, you weird.

Siobhan: 30:35

It's gonna be hard, though, when you're watching your dad killing himself and struggling with an addiction.

Tara Mae: 30:41

Yeah, and I didn't know that that's what it was exactly. It was such a huge like, slam, like, boom. It was like, reality. There was no like, leading up to it. It was like, my dad was doing crack and heroin and shit in the house and offering it to me. I had tonsillitis when I went to live with him, and like, a week after I lived with him, he offered me that he's like, Oh, it'll numb it up. And like, you know, when you have a parent that's like, doing that kind of stuff, and it's, it's, can be really, I was really fortunate after his second OD, within the time span of about two months or less, because it was all so fast and such a blur. My grandmother I got put in a foster home. Oh, wow. Got put in a foster home. And I really have blocked out a lot of it, but I think it was probably a week, a week, maybe a week and a half, that I spent there, and then my grandmother came and got me, my father's mother, OMA Chun, and my mother always told me terrible things about her, and so I was afraid of her. But when she came to get me, and she was so sweet, I was like, That can't be true. My mother was so mean to me, I can't imagine. Just didn't feel right. And so it felt very natural to find, you know, just like I was very feral, you know, coming in, my grandmother was a very proper, you know, woman, and very and so it was. I was very feral coming from living with my parents who, like, let me run around like a little stray cat and barefoot and fishing and climbing trees and not taking baths, and, you know, and grandma was, like, you can take a bath, and I'm like, Ducking when I want to, you know, like, I was so feral.

Unknown: 32:27

Like, like,

Tara Mae: 32:30

So grandma always cared, right? Grandma was so gentle with me. So she really, if it weren't for her, I'd be a feral I don't even know if I'd be alive. Quite frankly, she was just a really wonderful, sweet influence of positive feminine energy that showed me what it meant to be strong and and loving and firm and gentle, and if it needs to be, you know and still love you. Grandma taught me a lot about being human. I didn't really feel human. I felt very like I said the word feral very much. My parents raised me fishing. We got fish take the babies out, like we were crazy children, like we were fucking seriously feral children. We used to fight like dogs. They'd leave us in the car for like an hour to go in the grocery store, and we'd fight in the car until they came back to weird strangers were looking in the car like we were feral. You know? We grew around, grew up around, a lot of violence and screaming and hollering. So, yeah, you know? So grandma mellowed me out.

Siobhan: 33:41

She was gave you probably your first real estate of home

Tara Mae: 33:45

in my own room, my own bathroom, my own whole section of the house, whole floor of the House, to myself. Oh, wow. I was like, so like, can you imagine, like, all these switches that I went from like, and then I finally land in this beautiful three level home where I have my own room and all that, you know, school and but in the midst all that, what happens to a young, feral girl, she got pregnant. So unbeknownst to me, at 15, I had become pregnant. Wow, and that's so young. I didn't know nothing, I didn't know nothing, and so grandma with her, I always joking witchy cell. She used to go, Tara, are you pregnant? Oh, I'd be like, No. Why would you say that? She was like, and one day, finally, she's like, I'm taking you to the doctor. Took me to Children's Hospital Oakland. She's like, you're pregnant, Jeremy. And I was like, Why? Why do you keep saying that? She said, It's your hands, like old southern black woman, she looked at my hands, and she said, It's your hands. I said, What do you mean? What? What? She's like I I'm just telling you, right? So I'm sure you know she. New signs. I was very tiny, though, and wasn't showing I was still in a leotard and dance class and stuff. Girl, she took me to Children's Hospital Oakland. Why? They said I was seven months pregnant. 28 weeks, seven months. Girl, grandma was like, Well, you know, there are certain options that are not available now. And I was like, by that point, though, I felt like I had been through a lot, and I was just, I was like, I knew I couldn't take care of this baby, right? And Grandma told me, she said, people are gonna have a lot to say about this, and you don't mind none of it. She said, You're not a bad girl because you had a baby. She said, in fact, the bad girls, they know how not to get pregnant. So I thought that was so sweet.

Siobhan: 35:49

That is a sweet way to look at that.

Tara Mae: 35:53

So she said, there's gonna be people in the family and everything that got something to say about it. And I want you to know I support whatever you choose to do for this baby, because I know you're gonna make the right choice for the baby. And we had a family friend who had briefly dated my father because they grew up together and she couldn't have children, and she came to me and offered to do an open adoption. She said, I would like to take care. There's a whole long story behind that that I won't go into right now, but yeah, so she came and she did an open adoption, and so I named a little girl, and, you know, holidays and stuff, she'd come see me, you know, but Grandma told me she was really wise, and she said, Tara, may I know it's gonna hurt you, but you gonna need to stay away. I know that everybody said you can visit and stuff, but she said, for your heart, I think you need to. And she said, you don't want that woman to think you gonna steal the baby back. And I took that to heart, and I said, okay, and I did. So as the years went on, I kind of backed away more and more, and I'd get pictures, but I'd, you know, I just didn't stay as connected,

Siobhan: 37:07

right? Yeah, I imagine that's extremely difficult to be watching someone else. Reason your kid, you know, giving them the life that you want to be giving

Tara Mae: 37:17

them, right? Like, right? Yeah. So, you know, that was fucking crazy. It's a hard thing, yeah, all right, pretty intense. But, you know, you keep pushing. I finished school, and, you know, I worked and I went to school, and I did all the things and normal, you know, responsible kid tries to do. And then 19, I got pregnant again. It's like, I never thought I was gonna have all these kids, you know, these things happen. And that one, I was like, I'm not letting this happen again. I'm gonna take care of this baby. I'm gonna do whatever I have to do. And I grew myself up real good. And I got an apartment, little studio apartment, little, you know, and I met this guy, and we stayed together for 10 years. I was eight months pregnant when I met him, he was living, you know, like in this shared living situation, and I was visiting my friend who was there while I was pregnant, and we just got along, and he was, like, the first guy I'd met in a long time that didn't just try to, like, jump my bones

Siobhan: 38:23

well being ate my

Unknown: 38:25

friends, I'm pregnant.

Tara Mae: 38:28

You still like me. Okay, you cool, like, you don't want to just do it to me. So. And he was like, like, 10 years older, almost 11 years older, Oh, wow. But he was real young looking, and he was, he was just such a protector. He was so sweet and giant. He was like six foot five, big, giant guy. And he just took such good care of me, and I needed that in my life. You know, my dad was six foot five. I very much needed, like that six foot five, like black man, to come and just be like everything my dad failed to be, and then he ended up kind of being that, and I kind of grew out of that. After 10 years, we had a really great time together, but he was very protective, overly protective. And as I grew as a woman and as person, it just was like, this doesn't really work for me. I'm I don't like that vibe over me so well,

Siobhan: 39:19

because it goes from being it feels protective at first, and then it goes to feeling controlling that part. And it's like, I don't know when that shifted, where it used to feel good that you were watching my back, and now it feels like you're telling me what I can and can't do,

Tara Mae: 39:32

right, exactly, you know, exactly, yeah, yeah. It became that, like, you know, even to the point of like, I don't want you to cut your hair, or I want you to wear these clothes, or, you know, like, all my 20s, I kept extra weight on me, like 3040, extra pounds on me, because I felt like when I got attention from people, it would just make him go crazy, and they he'd go off on them in public. And I was like, if I'm big, they won't pay attention to me. But it worked out that. It. I still got the attention with the long hair and big they still, it didn't matter. People were still gonna look and do whatever, and he would just it. Just over the years, it never got better. And I'd be like, You don't trust me. It's like, I trust you. I don't trust them. And I was like, I can't live like this. Yep, anymore. Get me out of here. Get me out of here. And so we, you know, we ended up having another child together and stuff, you know, during the course of that time, wonderful child. That child is so wonderful. She's an angel. So he, yeah, we, we had a great time together, but we just kind of, I outgrew that situation, you know, by the time I was 29 I was like, I'm ready to lose all this weight. I'm about to go back to school. I'm ready to be a whole new person. I'm very much like, shed the old exoskeleton. Let's go with something new all the time. Yeah, you know, I get bored pretty easily with myself.

Siobhan: 40:50

Well, I think, like, if you're doing life right, you are always evolving and learning and growing and becoming like, a different, different version of yourself, right? And like, finding more things that you're excited about or interested in or passionate about, yeah, I think that's important. And I think sometimes you can do that with a person, and then sometimes that person is like blocking you from it, right? And if they're growing with you and they're growing, then it's great. But if only one of you is growing, it kind of gets very lopsided, very fast, very

Tara Mae: 41:18

quickly, and, you know, resentment and all the stuff. So around 29 I left, and I, you know, I just, I'm a very like, just go. So pack my stuff like a thief in the night kind of thing, and laugh, yeah, you know, to be fair, 29 year old me was not graceful. I was just like, I gotta go. And so was, it was painful for him, and he was upset for a few years, but to this day, right now, he and I are such good friends, and he's a wonderful father and really good friend, great with my current partner. Like, they get along like, you know, it's good, it's good So, but he understood, you know, over the years, we took time to talk. He went to therapy. I went to therapy. We grew as individuals, and we came back together. We talked, we co parented, you know, throughout it all. And you know, he was a good dude, you know, he understood that it wasn't it was that I needed to keep growing, and that he had told me, I'm gonna be this dude all the time for the rest of my life. And I was like, that, don't work for me, yep, and that's okay,

Siobhan: 42:22

yeah, and I you can eventually be friends, or, like, if you can do it, if you can catch it early enough and have that conversation be like, All right, bet you want to be the same person, and I don't. So yeah, like, let's walk away with this. Walk away from this with, like, love and, like, the same kind of love and care that we walked into it. Yeah, it's so hard for people.

Tara Mae: 42:41

It is because people get so wrapped up in, like, all of the time they spent and all that. And it's like, but that was all to learn, right? Sometimes people come into your life, as the old folks say, for it, therefore it's a reason, a season, some for a lifetime, but very few for a lifetime. You know it's, it's for a short time, most people, you're very blessed if people end up being the ones that get to stick around with you for the long haul and all that growth. Everybody can't do that.

Siobhan: 43:10

Yeah, and it should be like, I wish people could accept it more. Yeah, even myself. Sometimes, you know, like, I will try to keep a relationship going when I know I shouldn't be where I'm like, if I just let it just kind of fizzle, yeah, you know, like, instead of either fighting for it when it's like, not being reciprocated, or just being like, Okay, well, that's a person that I'll only see in these instances. And when I see them, it's great. And then when I don't, it's shouldn't be a problem, right? You know? And I try to lead that, because I leave the same thing. I'm always like, it's a lesson, a blessing, a reason, or a season. You see you,

Tara Mae: 43:45

right? I saw your face. You were like, it's right, yes,

Siobhan: 43:49

yeah, I say that a lot, and I'm like, it's because it's true, like everything, and you never know which is going to be which, and it's trying to figure out which is, which is, like driving yourself

Tara Mae: 43:58

crazy. It's impossible. It's like us trying to figure out how, the hows and whens and all the things, like, you know, when it comes to, like, manifesting things, you know, like, you don't think about the hows and the whens and the what is gonna you're just like, I know it's gonna happen. I it's already mine. And I'm more if you're moving in that vein, and all of your energy, and you know, is moving in that vein, you don't have to worry about the hows and the whens and the whys and the you know, right?

Siobhan: 44:25

Yeah, so where did you go after you left as a thief in the night? Oh,

Tara Mae: 44:31

I was so crazy. I met this crazy, crazy boy from Cleveland. I was bartend, and I lost all this weight. I got down, like, super tiny, like, size two. I thought it was so cute. Girl, girl, I look like a crackhead. I look like a Q tip. Everybody was like, girl, you all right, if I have no no better, I think he was on drugs. I'm like, Well, I'm not. I'm really cute right now, because that was fat for so long. I was like, I don't know what's. Wrong with them. They're just tripping. I'm really cute, but when I look back at those pictures, I'm like, Oh girl, damn. So anyways, this I was working at this bowling alley and bartending and this crazy cock eyed white boy walks. No joke, if I showed you a picture, you'd be like, Oh yeah, cockeyedi was but you know, I was probably drinking a lot behind the bar, and I didn't really notice it until I went to meet him

Unknown: 45:28

for coffee. You're also cocked. So he comes to

Tara Mae: 45:33

the bar, and apparently he went out and he told me, he told me later, he's like, I told my friends and his friends, he said, I'm married. I bartender. And then he did. He did. He's like, he came back in. He's like, Can I get your number? I was like, nope, Ducking, give me yours. And two weeks later, I had enough, and that's when I left a thief, like a thief in the night. Moved in with him. Oh, my God.

Unknown: 46:00

I moved in with him and his dog. He

Tara Mae: 46:04

had two dogs. One was Cujo and one, yeah. Anyways, I was crazy. I was crazy. I went through some crazy stuff, and I ended up having another baby at 30. Oh my gosh. So that's the fourth eyed guy with the cockeyed guy with the cockeyed Cleveland boy, and unbeknownst to me, like he was a complete alcoholic. Of course, that's all I attract. You know, you grow up with that. It looks normal. So ended up with the alcoholic like snorty Boy that lied about it the whole time, and, you know, all the crazy stuff and being gas lit, you know, to be made to think you're crazy. Oh, you you still like me doing coke because your dad was crackhead. And I'm like, You shouldn't say those things around me.

Siobhan: 46:57

So probably okay that I think it's a, not a great thing to be doing a

Tara Mae: 47:01

coke. I mean, really, especially if you feel like, if I didn't lie about it, like,

Siobhan: 47:05

even if my dad wasn't a crackhead, right?

Tara Mae: 47:08

What makes you bro? Like, he just, he was such a gas lighter. So after a few years of that, not even a few years like, we ended up getting married, and that was weird, I went down, I told you, I went down the aisle his mother handed me value

Siobhan: 47:23

right before I was like, freaking out about getting married.

Tara Mae: 47:25

I wasn't externally, but internally, like I remember being in the mirror fixing my hair and my dress, going, What the are you doing? Why are you doing this? If you just walked away, nobody would die. But I had my daughters with me, and I was like, You need to be an adult. You've gotten this far. We're all the way in Cleveland. And the we were in Shaker Heights, Ohio. I was like, it's snowing. I guess you're getting married and you're gonna have a white Christmas right here. And that's what we did in December, in December. So I knew it was the wrong thing to do, but I was like, it's just, like, a tattoo. I can get it covered up, I can get a divorce. I'll just get a new tattoo. I was like, this isn't, like, permanent,

Unknown: 48:14

not wrong,

Tara Mae: 48:16

you know? I was like, it's an experience. It's something I'm doing, and that's what it did, and that's what it was. And then about I want to say, Oh, I remember after the wedding, because we were together for like, about a year and a half. And after the wedding, I think I stayed for like, nine months, 10 months, and then, like a thief in the night, once again, packed my shit, said goodbye to him in the morning, took the kids to school, and as soon as he was gone, I went back home, packed my van and wouldn't pick my kids back

Unknown: 48:46

up from school, and left. Oh my God,

Tara Mae: 48:49

because I'm crazy and I don't, I don't just don't have the patience if you didn't get it. Thus far, I'm leaving because you don't get it, and I'm not doing this anymore. So not the best way, but I'm out. You know, would I do that now in my life? At 50, no, no, but I was that squirrely bitch, yeah?

Siobhan: 49:08

Well, at 3234 whatever, like, even your mid 30s, you're still like,

Tara Mae: 49:12

so Oh, my goodness. You think you're so grown now you do. Yeah, I thought it was so grown. I thought it was so grown, but yeah, so, you know, I had a really interesting life of and there's so much in between. Girl We talking about another time, but you know it, I think all of that made me someone that's really adaptable, but it takes, you know, it's taken me, for me to get older and need to slow down, to want to, like, take the time and be more mindful of how I navigate everything was so survival. I need, you know, so I'm just now starting to learn like you don't have to run like you used to run. You don't have to do those things. You can slow down and take the time to think, right? And, you know,

Siobhan: 50:16

figure out exactly what you want before you just take off in the middle of the night, exactly

Tara Mae: 50:22

like that girl is so long gone for me. Like, I can't even imagine being that way now. But, like, it used to be really easy for me to be that way, and now I'm very much like, No, I I've been living in a way in the past, like, especially the last two years or so, like, where I'm just like, No, there's nothing to lose by just talk it out, right? Me and Jeff, that's we've been together 14 years, because we made a deal very early on that we instead of getting upset as soon as something feels funny, just say, Hey, can we talk for a minute and nobody take anything personally. Because, honestly, usually, when you think something, it's usually not even that, and it's like, oh, we just keep moving. So we've never really even had a real argument, you know, ever, because it's like, we just talk about it. And I'm finding that in my favorite relationships and friendships, it's people that feel comfortable coming to me and being like, hey, tear me or a tea, you know, and it's like, boom. It's Oh no, or Yeah, it's, do we just Hash it out in love and peace? It doesn't matter if it's gonna scratch a little. It don't matter.

Siobhan: 51:28

Just do it. Yeah, it's almost like not pulling the band aid off. But it's almost like the fact that you're willing to have the conversation is more than what the conversation's about. Yeah, where it's like, oh, this person actually want values me enough to be like, have you seen noticed this blind spot? Or like, Hey, you're doing this thing, and it kind of pissing me off, right? I don't think you're trying to piss me off, right? It's hurting my feelings, and I know it's not your job to like, protect my feelings, but like, and I know it's

Tara Mae: 51:56

not intention, right? Yeah. And I think that what you just said is huge to us learning how to be received by saying, Hey, friend, I know it's not intentional in my heart. I know it's not intentional when you do this. I just want you to know this is how it makes me feel. And remember, there are only my feelings. Feelings are just things Right back, right, right. So, you know, I just want to put it that, but it's that too, like us figuring out how to be received, because I used to be the bar key bitch, that was just like, you do that, and I can't say that. That pisses me off. And it's like, no one hears you, even if you're right,

Siobhan: 52:31

right? Yeah, well, and it's like, you're blaming the other person, right? Where you're like, you're doing this, and it's and it's like, then you it just people get defensive, and then

Tara Mae: 52:39

they can't, and why shouldn't they, when you're coming at them like that, right? Yeah, so.

Siobhan: 52:44

And it's about like, thinking that people have the best intentions, yeah? Like, if you're friends, then you shouldn't be assuming that they're trying to hurt you, right? And if they do, right, it happens and me, or maybe you just don't vibe, like, and that's okay, too. That part, like, there are some people that I like as people, but I know when we like we just don't mix in whatever way, right? Or they do something that just whatever grates on a nerve of mine, and I'm like, small dose, friend, or, you know, small

Tara Mae: 53:12

dose, I love that. That's the small dose. Yeah, yeah.

Siobhan: 53:15

Like, okay, I can enjoy them as a person, but only in small doses. And, like, I don't need them in my life more. It's also appreciate them, yeah, but I appreciate that they're there, yeah, you

Tara Mae: 53:27

still appreciate them authentically and sincerely, just in small doses, because you know, you know what you can do, yeah, I know what you got in you, yeah.

Siobhan: 53:35

And I think that that takes a while it does to learn. It

Tara Mae: 53:39

does. And I'm still like, Girl, tuck it in. Tuck it in. Hold on, yeah, let me go tuck that in. I'll be right back. Guys. A little crazy flap in the ground back there for but I think, you know, the crazy life. You know, we all have a crazy life. Everybody's got stuff the crate, the type of crazy that I dealt with made me, you know, now that all my kids are grown ups, and I've had a few years to like, like, find myself, there was a minute where I felt lost, and that's why I came back to fireside. During that time period, I was kind of, like, scrubbing floors incessantly, like a crazy person, like, I ain't got no kids. What I'm gonna do Sandy was, you know, just coming out of pandemic. And I was like, and, you know, Loki had just passed, and she called me, and I was like, it was like, just the perfect moment to come back and give my life to some thing that meant a lot to me and brought me a great sense of purpose and value in the crazy. Skill set that I have accumulated over time, from working in mannequin warehouses to being a school teacher and like, all the crazy things I've done, you know, it's like, where else could I put all that to good use? Fireside is the perfect place with Sandy and yeah, you know,

Siobhan: 55:17

any events and the Yeah, the community outreach, and yeah, and then you guys are on the cusp of opening up your gallery, and so that's super exciting. So have you always like it was art part of like, your healing? Has it always been part of, like, is that what you went through to kind of help heal you? Because I think you said your mom was an artist. Yeah, right. Mother was

Tara Mae: 55:37

a genius artist. She was like, multimedia. She anything you could think of. My mother could do. She could create. She could sew, crochet, sculpt. She ran business from, you know, a business from home, selling magnets, refrigerator magnets, of all things made from this crazy vintage recipe, bread dough that she learned from this woman, and she used to work for and she, like, decided to go do the business herself. Perfected the clay so it would be last longer and everything. And ended up there was a magnet store like on the end of Pier 39 for many, many, many years, decades even. And her magnets bred. They look like little sourdoughs and little packages that were sold there, and they get shipped across the world. And we did all the little vendor we used to go to festival with the lake. I was a vendor kid, a little feral vendor kid running around so

Siobhan: 56:31

at home,

Tara Mae: 56:34

there was nothing my mother couldn't look at and make, not make. Oh, wow. And so I ended up with that same mind and talent. And so I do everything from sculpting to, you know, sewing and needle felting like anything that I think I want to learn. I just sit myself down and figure it out, you know, so art's always, always been, always been a place of peace for me. So being able to, like, spend more time creating again, you know, life takes that away from you, where you have to, like, make money and take, you know, kids to go to soccer or whatever the hell they're doing, all these things you don't get to so it's nice now to be like, I can do these things again, right? Yeah, I can just play with clay like at two o'clock in the morning, barefoot in my kitchen, and make fake olives like that, turn them into earrings and whatever my little crazy mind thinks of I can do those things. Being doing the gallery with Sandy is like fun, because I'm gonna do workshops there, yeah, you know, I taught workshops at the Museum of creative use, creative of designing. You know, in San Francisco Museum of design, I always forget the name, but everything from like teaching people how to make floral head crowns to faux terrazzo finger bowl. So terrazzo is like a stone. It's like stone that's like laid in other it's hard to describe. My brain can't do it right now. Yes, very mosaic ish kind of vibes, but we do, I do it with polymer clay and teach people how to do it, or they can just bake it in their oven and make their oven and make ring bowls. Oh, nice, you know, whatever they want, but jewelry, you know, I've just always, I've always, no matter what job I did, whether it was in the medical field, as a clinic coordinator or medical records clerk, whatever I was doing, I always was like, doing some side hustle, like the chick that sells earrings when she pulls up to the PTA meeting, you know what I mean? Like, always that hustle is strong, right? That Bay Area, hustle heart so, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan: 58:54

When did you first start therapy? Like, did you just one day think, like, hey, because you had mentioned, when you were talking about your story, like you went you had gone to therapy, he had gone to therapy. And so was that something that, like, was easy for you to be like, oh, I need to go to therapy. It

Tara Mae: 59:09

was hard for me because I had some uncomfortable experiences with therapy when I was younger my mother, you know, being an alcoholic and a lot of the behaviors that go along with that, like being a narcissist and things like that. Like, there was a lot of for me, there was a lot of shame about going to therapy. When she would put me in therapy, it was very much, very much felt like there was something wrong with me. But I'd go to the therapist, and they'd be like, you're such a nice kid, you're you're really okay, and right? And then I'd get taken out of that therapist, right? And then get taken out of that therapist and away from and I wouldn't see him. And now, in retrospect, I realized my mother wasn't hearing what she wanted to hear from those therapists. Like your kids up and, you know, my they're like your kids pretty fucking good, like and so that's why now I know as an adult why I never got to go back to those, you know, right? So it was a hard time for me. And I think about about 15 years ago, I decided to try to dabble going back. It was real rocky. I didn't feel comfortable with anybody. And about five years in fooling around in and out of it, I found a really great therapist who I still see, and I've seen now for 10 years, so I've really had a chance to grow with them. And it's really an interesting dynamic when you have a therapist that has watched you grow over the time span, and watched you, like, with young children all the way to no children, and, you know, going into perimenopause, like, watching me grow from all these and being like, it's been a decade, and I just, I recently, just started going back a couple of months ago, and after not seeing for a year, and, you know, hearing my therapist go, wow, we've been doing this for 10 years, right? Was a really, really powerful moment for me, in the regard of, like, something, I stuck with something, right? Yeah, and someone, and someone, and it's, you know, it's, it's been really, really nice to have that always know that it's there, yeah. And I'm not someone that likes to go to therapy like every, every week, you know, I go. I like to grow in between. So I see my therapist once a month, three weeks, you know, I see you, and then three, three and a half weeks go by, and I do some growing and moving and navigating through the world, and I come on back and tell you how it's going and get some feedback. And, yeah,

Siobhan: 1:01:32

it's like having a checkup. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think, yeah. Like, when you're working through something, it's good to go all the time. But some, I am a huge, like, champion of taking breaks from therapy, yeah, and like, going and being able to, like, integrate all that stuff and see how you do on your own, but then having that door to go back to it, and, yeah, you know, follow up with that same person and be like, okay, like, here's the things that we were working on, and here's where I'm at. And then I, like, love a maintenance visit. Like, yes, like, I'm gonna come see you every four weeks or five weeks, or, like, check in, because not anything major I'm working on right now. And, yeah, and I think therapy is great. I think everyone should go at least sometime,

Tara Mae: 1:02:10

at least sometime. Yeah, it's really nice. Even if you could only do, like, a quarterly, you know, check in, right? That would be well,

Siobhan: 1:02:19

because I think people forget to check in with themselves about stuff so often, like, so you just get and, I mean, I've done it, like, where you just running from kind of one thing to the other, and you're like, just surviving. And you're like, Okay, here I just have to get this done, and then I just have to get through this, and then I can just, and then you're just like, you're spinning, and you're going and going, and you don't even check in to see, like, how you feel about any of it, right? And then you're like, way down this path. And you're like, how did I get here? How has it been this long? And why do I feel like this? Yeah, like, shouldn't I feel better if I'm all the way down here? Yeah? And you're like, Fuck, I don't.

Tara Mae: 1:02:51

Therapy really does help you keep that focus for yourself, that self care aspect of things. So,

Siobhan: 1:03:02

so what's what else is up for you for the next like, now that you are kid free and you have a good man and your dog, you survive, so is it just feel like, Does life feel easy for you now, or, I mean, compared, I know it's like comparison is a thief of joy. And, yeah, I wonder like, is, Are you finally? Do you feel like I'm settled and like do

Tara Mae: 1:03:27

for the most part? Siobhan, I really do like. I really can say I feel the most grounded and most in my own skin and comfortable in my own skin. And the direction, like is not so important for me as the journey. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like direction can change with the wind and with circumstances alter things. And you know, so staying flexible, I used to be very rigid and get very disappointed when things would change. And I'm really still working on becoming much more flexible and flowy with, you know, yeah, now that there's not so much need for structure in my life, like that. I still require structure as a Capricorn, though, but I much prefer organized chaos to, like, you know, having, like, some super regimented routine going on. So really right now, I feel like I'm really focused on learning to slow down for myself, and something Jeff has helped me to learn over the years, having more compassion for myself. Because as much as I didn't understand it before, having compassion for myself actually allows me to have more compassion for other people. Yeah, you know, I thought it was selfish to have compassion for myself because it would take away from what I could give to other people. But it's

Siobhan: 1:04:59

really. Yeah, yeah, because you can't pour from an empty cup, right? And if you're holding yourself to one standard and then everyone else to another one, it's like, almost a disservice to them too, yep, because, or like, you're harder on yourself and easier on them, and then, like, it opens you up to be, like, walked on or, like, right? Oh, she doesn't,

Tara Mae: 1:05:20

you know, I also have found that when I have these exceedingly high expectations of myself, which my therapist or my partner have had to point out to me, I also then have a tendency to have them and put them on other people too in my mind. And I again, you know, I found myself being so disappointed because I'm like, what if I would think of that automatically. Why wouldn't they think of that automatically? And then that's not fair to them, right? It's not fair to it's not fair to anyone. So, like, learning, like I said, learning to have more compassion for myself, you know, catching myself when I say, Oh, you dumbass. Like, our nervous system doesn't know the difference. Parasympathetic nervous system doesn't know the difference between when we say I'm a dumb ass to myself, or if somebody else says it's the same thing. So really being conscientious of that treatment of myself and it being more, you know, trying to slow down because I've noticed like and being able to slow down I can, I can just obviously think more logically and more practically and more mindfully, it's just something I never really afforded myself with the life that I chose, having kids back to back to back and, you know, all those things. But it does very much feel like at 50, my life is in a in a huge way, starting all over again. Yeah, it feels very brand new, and in a lot of ways very raw, but in a lot of ways also very like, strong and like. So it's a very interesting dichotomy of feelings, yeah, because

Siobhan: 1:06:49

in some ways it's almost like you just graduated college, because your kids are all like now, and they're like, their own spaces and kind of taking care of themselves. And of course, you're still home based for them, and still here for them, but like, but they're pretty your job with them is pretty much done now, like, and so you get to have all of this new time that you own. And you know,

Tara Mae: 1:07:09

it's so crazy, you know, because when you're your 30s, you're like, Man, I would just go out and party. I'm like, I want to stay home and play with my crafty stuffs and paint. And, yeah,

Siobhan: 1:07:22

the only problem is, we'll wrap it up. But the only problem is, I'm not sure when it stopped

Tara Mae: 1:07:26

recording, so we might have to come back a lot of fun. You made it really?

Siobhan: 1:07:30

Will you lean back just a little? Yeah, for sure, yeah. So we just had some technical difficulties. I have been having technical difficulties a lot the last few episodes, like I have a whole episode with Christos from Park Street tavern, yeah, and his mic. It was sounding great in my headphones, and then when I went to listen to it, it wasn't even on. Oh no. I mean, it was, but for some reason, it just didn't record, or my mic didn't record. But I'm the only one you can hear. It was like a glitch in the system, and it was such a weird thing. But like these

Tara Mae: 1:07:57

little things, it's some stuff going on in the universe, it is, and it's

Siobhan: 1:08:01

that time, but I also feel like it's stuff that I would have it would have made me, like, worry and quit and question if I should still be doing it. And that thought hasn't crossed my mind at all stuff. So it's like, oh, okay, wait a second. I hit another level. Okay, yeah, yes, confidence and like, I just, I sent it to a couple of audio guys that I knew, and a few of them looked at it, and they were like, you'd have to go buy almost, like, minute by minute to fix it. And they're like, you know, I could do it, but it'll cost you a lot of money. Or I was just like, Yeah, I'm just gonna ask him if we can redo it right? Like, there's no big deal. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, you know, I'm sorry that I'm have to, you know, ask for more of your time. But also, like, we get to hang out again. It's not that terrible.

Tara Mae: 1:08:42

I love that, though, for you that you know, and I love to hear that other people, for me, I gaged a lot, like, you know, like, you know, a couple of years ago that would have freaked, like, made me flip my shit, or I would have lost my shit a year ago over that, like that, that growth Gage, where you're like, man, just a few months ago, you know, like, I hear you, I hear you do that like a lot, when I we talk and I'm like, I love that. You know, we do that for ourselves.

Siobhan: 1:09:07

Well, yeah, like, I want to acknowledge it in myself. So like, one, I think it helps someone else. And two, and like, when you can admit it, it just yeah, like, if that stuff had happened, or, like, some of the other stuff that we were talking about in our personal lives. Like, if stuff like that had happened six months or a year ago, I would be beside myself, right and even right now, like, my job, one of my jobs ended, and it ended abruptly, and it kind of rocked me and, like, upset me, and then I was also like, but it's also a gift from the universe. And this is happening, and that's happening, and I'm, like, concerned about where some of my finances will have like fall, but I'm not worried, but not worried, and for the it's and I saying to you, I don't know, maybe I'm just completely delusional at this point in my life. I don't think you are. I don't think so. It's almost like I every time I've trust the universe and followed my intuition, it's been okay.

Tara Mae: 1:09:56

It sounds, you know, I know it sounds so hokey pokey and hippie. Dippy, but god darn it, if it's not real and provable, like we've lived it, yeah, we know it, and it's really hard to deny that. If you know it's hard to stay in that mode, obviously, because being human, but like, it's hard to deny once you've seen it for yourself, experience for yourself, that that's the best way to

Siobhan: 1:10:21

go. And I think, and actually, this is but last point before we wrap this up, because how did you or Where did you keep the hope from? Because I think at one point, like in my life, I lost a couple people, and I was just like, What's the fucking point? And I kind of gave up on a lot of stuff, because I was like, none of this matters. Like we all just fucking die anyways. And like, I remember, I became very, kind of jaded, and I was just like, unmotivated to do some of the things that you're supposed to do in life. Like, I It's when I first dropped out of college and was just like, I don't know what I want to do, but I know, like, this isn't making me happy, it's getting my anxiety worse. Like, I don't know where I'm going, and I just need a minute to kind of catch my breath and figure out what the fuck I'm gonna do with my life. And, like, why waste the money that I don't have and my parents don't have going to a school that I hate, right? But I and I kind of was just like, nothing matters, because we just all die. So like, I'm just gonna figure out what I'm

Tara Mae: 1:11:16

gonna laugh, yeah?

Siobhan: 1:11:19

And I was just like, I don't, you know. And then I, like, didn't have a dream for my life, because it was, like, I couldn't get past the fact that, like, what? What's the point in it? Like, why work so hard, if it's all just gonna get taken away? Yeah. And then I don't know where, like, I shook it, you know, and I don't, but I didn't shake it for a long time. I still had a hard time, like, dreaming about what I wanted my life to be, or what I felt like I could dream about because, like, what was I worth? Almost, yeah, like, and I think, like, now, like, I actually, like, now, if 15 year old me, or 22 year old me, could see my life now, she'd be like, Bitch. That's a dream.

Tara Mae: 1:11:51

That's right, we were, we wanted

Siobhan: 1:11:54

the dream. That was the dream that we couldn't even admit we

Tara Mae: 1:11:56

had. We didn't even know we had.

Siobhan: 1:11:59

And, like, now I have all these other like, dreams and hopes and desires to where my life will go, and it's scarier. It's scarier than not having it, because now it's like, I could fail or whatever, but like, how did you not lose any of that hope? Because, like, the eardrum grown up so much harder, and I actually have two questions, yeah, maybe we'll do another one another

Tara Mae: 1:12:21

day. I don't, I think, I don't know, hope, I don't know. I think I got used to losing things really young, and so I just never looked at things as permanent in my life. I'm very I've been told in by some people that I can be cold because I'm very quick, and it's very quick and very easy for me to turn something off, shut it out, and be done with it. So I just never when I really, really love somebody or something, like, It's hardcore, like, I take care of it. It's I'm protecting that shit with my life, right? But it's far and few between, because I'm so I've gotten used to it. So it was easy. I think keeping hope for me was more so just, it wasn't even about like I've got to keep the keep hope, it was more so just like, I'm so used to losing stuff, like I could just recomp everything anyways, I'll restart all over again. It's just never been a thing for me. I've left all my belongings behind before and been like, fuck it. I'll start over. I don't care, you know, just I have that mentality, like I am not afraid of letting go of everything and waking up the next day in a new place and starting from scrige Scratch.

Siobhan: 1:13:36

That's a superpower. That's a superpower.

Tara Mae: 1:13:40

Man, I don't, it's not my favorite thing to do, but I am not. You're not afraid, yeah, at all. And I think I find a lot of people, like, miss out on, like, some serious opportunities to get get a new thing, yes, because they're so scared. And I'm just like, I have no fear. I really don't.

Siobhan: 1:14:01

Well, you have all the data to prove that you can redo, you can do it, yes, and that's what that was. One of the favorite, my favorite things that a therapist told me one time, like, she was like, Okay, I get that you are afraid of this. And I get like, you might, you don't think you could do this thing, but like, what are three other things you never thought you're gonna do? And then she was like, and how hard was that? And I was like, you know, when you walk through it, and then she's like, okay, so doesn't the data support that you will get there? And I was like, fuck you using logic on me, the only thing that works for me, you know what I mean, like, right? And I was like, Well, when you put it like that, it's kind of like scientific that it will work because, you know, or the worst that happens is, I don't reach that goal, but I land somewhere else, right, right? Right? One of my favorite sayings is, reach for the moon, yeah. And if you miss maybe you'll land on a

Tara Mae: 1:14:45

star. And I've always looked at things that way too. Like for a long time, I'm like, I heard it when I was younger, and it just always made sense when one door closes another one opens, and when something else falls off that makes room for something else. And I got older. And did more reading and stuff about that thought process and mindfulness. And I was like, yeah, and then, you know, you practice it enough times, like I said, it's undeniable. It's not, you can't be that way all the time, because, again, being human is just hard as fuck. But like, when you when the times that you found yourself in that, in that, that motion, that momentum of just, like, being grateful and and like, no matter what, I want to be good, that that's when it goes the best. And I don't know how we as humans, just, like, get off that track. You

Siobhan: 1:15:32

know, I guess fuck it up all the time. We do. We forget it, or, like, think that we're gonna out think it or something.

Tara Mae: 1:15:38

Well, you know, honestly, to be fair, the world is designed in such a way the system, you know, is designed in such a way to distract us away from that, that mentality and mindset and makes things so difficult that we get off track of that gratitude and that, that that and moving in that direction of, like, everything's good, everything's good, you know, it, it really can be that way, But it's so hard sometimes, you know, so it's nice. And what I've really enjoyed recently in my life is that I've surrounded myself and made a real, hardcore, serious, mindful decision in my life, when people can't rock in that, if I can't grow with you, no hard feelings, but I don't fuck with you. We can say hi, I might even buy you a beer. I'll smoke a cigarette with you out in front of the bar, but you're not coming to my house. We're not kicking it in my space. Like you know, I need boundaries. I need to have that. And so what I've done for myself that, and I feel like that's changed a lot of things for me, because now I'm not, like, having other people's energy and their negativity in my field.

Siobhan: 1:16:47

Of, yeah, well, especially you are very energy sensitive. Like, you pick up on a lot of things. Like, I'm fairly sensitive, but you are super sensitive. You are I definitely like, yeah, yeah. Like, I made someone's vibe way before and like, I got bad at, like, I kind of ignored that talent for a long time because it used to freak me out. It freaked other people out. Like, you know, I because I've always been leaning towards the witchy world, but I've always been slightly afraid of it because it feels like too much. Like, I don't want to be the crazy old lady now, that's my whole goal. Is to be the crazy old lady in the witch I'll be the crazy

Unknown: 1:17:22

Crone, yeah, the witchy Crone, yep. Or maybe the

Tara Mae: 1:17:27

beautiful witch, I know. Can we be like beautiful witch? We'll be

Siobhan: 1:17:30

like Glenda witches. Yes, good witch. I still want to be a bad bitch, but

Tara Mae: 1:17:37

same too. I it's been a long time ignoring those things, especially Jehovah's Witness background, yeah, pray it away, you know. But yeah, I feel like you and I probably are in a space right now where we're coming to terms with it, and to come to terms with it, slowing ourselves down a little and giving ourselves a little more grace, a little more compassion and time for ourselves, and quiet is super important, and I'm finding that when I don't get that, that's when I'm grumpy and I'm outside of myself. Yeah, so I think we need to start working more of that time and for ourselves. Oh, yeah, some quiet so that we can hear ourselves and feel ourselves. Yeah,

Siobhan: 1:18:17

I used to not have any quiet, and I didn't realize it till I had a friend come stay with me for a few weeks. She was gonna she moved out here for a little bit, and she one day said to me, like, she was like, it's never quiet here. And I was like, and I didn't know what she meant, like, but I sleep with a sound machine, so there's noise in the background all night, and then I'll get up and throw on either the TV in the background, or I'll throw on music or a podcast or an audible book. So I always have like background,

Tara Mae: 1:18:41

but it's what you want. And so when I say quiet, I'm glad you mentioned that, because when I say quiet, I'm not talking about silence, sitting there meditating in the middle of the room and silence. I don't like dark rooms. I don't like dead silence. I need a podcast. I need something going on. That's what I call it's my chosen type of sounds. Is quiet

Siobhan: 1:18:59

to me, right? No, that makes sense. But then I also realized, like, I never had silence, yeah, and so then I tried to, and I was like, Oh, my God, silence makes me too like, then there's too much room in my head for thought. Like, I need that background stuff just to help distract. I don't know it's like, my 80s, like, yeah, I need, like, cushions, yeah. It's like, I need, like, there, it's too loud. If there's nothing else,

Tara Mae: 1:19:22

it's like bumpers you need, like, the background sound is like bumpers for your thoughts to, like, bounce off of. So it's not like, yeah, totally and

Siobhan: 1:19:30

then, but I have started to try to meditate and have quiet time, like, at least a little bit, yeah, you know, here and there. It's taken me a while to get used to it. Now, like, I can go for a walk without something, or I don't like to, but I can, you can, but I'll be like, well, I shouldn't be listening to that book right now. And, like, I could be learning so much more right in this moment,

Tara Mae: 1:19:48

but our brain does need that quiet. Yeah, I usually, because as a Capricorn, I'm so go, go, go, go, go. And I know you're a very Go, go, go, go, go person. So usually it's like, I will dedicate. Hour time to quiet and it's just the water. Yeah? It's not like I could hear music really, if I was playing it anyway. You know, it's like, that's my quiet time. You know, those? I take those moments as my go. Sometimes I'll just go smoke a cigarette down by crab Cove, yeah, turn my phone off 15 minutes, yeah, and just go sit at crab Cove and look at

Siobhan: 1:20:19

the birds. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, we're lucky that we live in a beautiful place.

Tara Mae: 1:20:23

I know we could just walk to the beach. We're so spoiled.

Siobhan: 1:20:26

All right. Well, I am gonna wrap this up. I do want to have you back, because I do have so many more questions. Just and you're so fun and funny, and I think we should do a little like, I don't know, maybe you come on the touch of the Chism one day, oh my god, a little crazy when there's four of us, but we could do that, and it might be so fun, you know, we'll figure out some other creative stuff, because I can't wait to see and be part of your classes at the new gallery that's opening next door to fireside. There's so many more things happening, and so thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Terry,

Tara Mae: 1:20:56

may thank you for thanks for making this comfortable and super fun. I look forward to hanging out with you again. Yeah, all

Siobhan: 1:21:02

right, now let's go have another beer. Yeah, thank you all for listening. Make sure you find your joy today. Go like, subscribe and follow us. Give us a review. You'll find all of Tara May's art. I'll link it in the show notes. So if you want to support her, come out and see us so we love you. Bye. Bye.